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Bryon and Jennifer Harvey

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Bryon Harvey

Submit to Whom

August 11, 2022 by Bryon Harvey

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at the end of it says the woman would supply what the man was lacking in the design of creation and logically it would follow that the man would supply what she was lacking.

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So here’s what the helper does.

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They bring something to the table that the original did not have.

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You bring something to the table that I don’t have.

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Oh and likewise you for me.

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Right.

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Absolutely.

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And you voice away from it.

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Welcome to the Alright.

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So we are joining you folks from the studio,

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we’ve got our producer todd here and this is our last podcast of 2021.

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We made it,

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we survived 2021.

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So we’re we’re all happy about this.

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But we we got a few more days left.

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Absolutely.

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So today we’re gonna be touching base and and just talking through this concept of gender roles.

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And I think that this carries a lot of baggage for a lot of christians for a lot of churches,

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depending on the church traditions that you’re coming out of.

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And I know that for myself,

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I had this really funny conversation a few summers ago where I sat down with this woman who was engaged wonderful lady fiance,

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really wonderful guy.

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And um in talking through things,

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perhaps she was trying to sound more spiritual to me.

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Perhaps she was trying to say I’m on a good course for things and how things are going right now.

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But she said jennifer,

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we want a biblical marriage and sounds like a good idea.

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I mean that’s we encourage that.

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Right?

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Well,

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it depends on what you mean by that.

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Right?

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You’re talking about.

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I mean we were this is a christian podcast.

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It should be biblical.

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That’s what we’re trying to do,

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right?

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We’re a thriving marriage is a biblical marriage,

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right?

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But what kind of marriage?

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Let’s talk about examples of this.

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So are we talking about Abraham and Sarah and Abraham is lying.

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Abraham.

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Abraham is great,

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right?

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He’s the father of Judah.

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He was the first one.

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He got the promise from God,

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he should have this locked in,

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right?

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No,

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he’s not the perfect one,

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right?

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Just like we’re not perfect.

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So the way that it works out,

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Abraham was lying to other people saying Sarah was his sister almost married her off.

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And that caused a lot of turmoil That by the way,

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don’t try to marry off your wife and you haven’t done that to me yet.

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So I appreciate that.

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So are we dealing with jealous sisterly polygamy at its best or worst,

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depending on how you’re looking at this,

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this is Rachel and Leah with Jacob and all of that drama that looks like it could be a reality show in 2021 on some sort of a cable network or a streaming service.

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So no,

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you don’t want those kinds of biblical marriages if you will.

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But I’ve also noticed that sometimes people will say,

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well,

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I want a biblical marriage and the subtext of that really means well,

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we’re not having sex before we got married.

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So good on you.

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That that’s a good thing to hold onto and to not have happened before you get married.

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But I think that’s an important point to bring up right now.

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You bring up this idea,

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you know,

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okay,

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we we were pure before marriage.

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And that’s a lot of we’ve talked about this before.

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A lot of churches really focus on that purity and to the point though,

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that it gets elevated,

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hey,

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if we can pull off this one thing,

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then we’re good to go.

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But that’s the bare minimum standard.

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That’s not thriving.

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That’s just meeting the basics,

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right?

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But what I’d say to that too is God is a god of the do overs the start overs the redemption.

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So even if people are making those kinds of mistakes before they get married,

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jesus is here to redeem at all,

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which is a fantastic kind of thing.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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At the same time,

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I mean,

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you want a thriving marriage.

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It’s more than just,

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oh,

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we we followed these rules and really getting into gender roles.

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And this idea of biblical marriage.

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What are the biblical gender roles?

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It gets really interesting.

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And we’ll talk about that some more,

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we’ll get into Ephesians where they really tie into those gender roles,

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A lot of the couple’s when we’ve done the pre marital,

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they’ll get and say,

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hey,

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we want this biblical marriage and we want to be able to have this experience.

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And so then we ask,

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okay,

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so how are you going to manage things in the house?

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This is a big deal when you first get married and those of you who are married listening this,

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you know what I’m talking about?

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You’ve been living either if it was like jen and I,

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we were living with our parents for all through this until,

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I mean we were in college and things,

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but we,

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our first home outside of our parents home was together.

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And so we had these things,

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but a lot of people now they’re starting their lives as singles and they have their own house.

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They have an apartment.

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They have all this stuff figured out about how,

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how the dishes are done,

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how the laundry’s done.

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They’ve got all of their chores,

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all their routines together.

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Then you come together and we talk to these couples like,

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oh,

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we’ll just do everything together.

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And that’s,

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I appreciate the idea of,

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hey,

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there’s no one greater than the other,

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But we’ve tried to do dishes together and we both appreciate that.

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We’re both willing to do the chore,

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but we bump into each other.

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It’s just,

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you can’t,

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you can’t both be doing the same thing and we’re not gonna buy two dishwashers.

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We’re not gonna buy two mops,

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You know,

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there’s just limited resources on how we’re going to do these chores together.

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But I say for some of that too is sometimes it’s trial and error just as to what,

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what’s gonna work the best when you first get married and it’s okay to take time to figure out what that’s going to be 100%.

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But we’ve got to break this idea that it’s just,

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oh we’ll do everything.

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Because usually what happens is if everyone is responsible,

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no one’s responsible.

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Why aren’t the dishes done yet?

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Oh,

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I thought you were gonna do it.

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I thought you were going to do it.

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There’s this great book out there called the case for marriage and they did a lot of research about the statistics of how marriage works,

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why marriage works.

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And they’re even really focusing on the economic advantages that married couples have.

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And one of those advantages is division of labor.

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Just like in a corporation,

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you don’t have one person doing all the tasks because then one person is getting overloaded and it slows down the process.

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One of the great things about about marriage is you yes,

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there are two people dirtying dishes and then when you add Children,

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there’s even more people dirtying dishes.

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Tell me about it.

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Especially during the lockdowns or laundry.

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I I don’t understand how someone half my size can produce so much laundry but they do and division of labor being able to say,

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okay,

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you’ve got this.

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I’ve got that.

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It’s important to be able to say,

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okay,

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we’re going to divide this up and we’re going to be responsible for different things.

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But going back to what you were saying sweetheart,

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what does the bible say about that?

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And what do gender roles in marriage really look like?

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Well that’s the thing I could throw in a lot of dead air here right now.

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But I’m not going to because the bible doesn’t get into specific gender roles.

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And a lot of that has to do with the fact that society really dictates gender roles.

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And even right now in America,

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gender roles are going to be different than say gender roles are going to be in Uganda.

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Just because our our cultures are different in societies are different.

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All of these people equally valuable in God’s eyes.

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But that’s societal structure really steps in there to make those definitions of what those roles are.

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And it’s not even cultures as different as like Uganda and the United States.

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Even rural America versus urban America,

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there’s different expectations of how things are done,

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lifestyles are different.

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I mean we’re seeing that all the time with the culture clash we’re dealing with politically in our country.

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And so these gender roles can be very different.

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Our marriage is very different from what a lot of people would think because you’re the primary breadwinner.

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I mean you spend more time working outside the home working to earn an income than I do with your law practice?

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I spend a lot of time with our operation,

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thriving marriage ministry stuff and of course with my military things for six months.

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You were doing both working full time and single mom while I was gone.

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Oh my goodness!

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But I wouldn’t say single mom because I knew you were coming back and I had your support.

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But I absolutely hear you on that,

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I had to step it up to make sure that kiddos were taken care of and that’s key.

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You can have a thriving marriage and it will look very different from the marriage is our marriage looks very different from every other marriage on our street because of career choices.

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I am more involved in our Children’s education than my dad was not because he cared less but because he worked outside the home more where my mom was more involved in our education.

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But even then when my sister was in school,

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both my parents were working.

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So neither of them were doing field trips and stuff and we’ve been able to do that and I tend to do more of those types of things.

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Just because scheduling gender roles are not defined so statically as a lot of people think and it really comes to,

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I think a lot of people with a misreading of Ephesians five.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So Ephesians five.

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The big verse that when it comes to gender roles that tends to really spark a lot of controversy.

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Get people really angry is 5 22.

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And so I just read it to you right now,

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wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord because the husband is the head of the wife as also christ is the head of the church,

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he himself being the savior of the body that wives submit.

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I’ve seen more articles,

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more anger,

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more frustration about that one little word that I think most of the other things in the bible and I’d say anger really on both sides of you know,

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some some women or some men are saying this wife isn’t submitting enough and needs to toe the line.

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And the other side saying,

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you know know the the wife has to take on more of a role where she’s certainly not going to be a doormat,

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people will use this.

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And there’s other passages in Titus and first peter talk about these things that people will use this as an idea of subservience,

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right?

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And so that’s really where the argument comes in but they’re misreading in this particular text in Ephesians first of all,

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in the greek when you read Ephesians five,

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you know 5 22 the words submit doesn’t actually occur there in the greek And actually if you go back up earlier to 21 and submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

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So two people submitted together and we’ll get into what’s going on earlier that cause it’s important that’s the verb.

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So when you go down to wives submit that verb is added in english translations because it doesn’t work in english,

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but that verb doesn’t actually exist.

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The translators are borrowing the earlier verb.

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So this whole argument where we’ve had culture wars and people screaming at each other is over a word that was added by translators because not even there in the greek,

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but when you look at Ephesians,

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the whole Book of Ephesians and really,

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most of paul’s letters are not about prescribing rules and regulations for how you live your life.

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It’s exhorting and encouraging us to be unified in the church.

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Uh,

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and then earlier,

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that’s submitting to one another out of reverence for christ all of that is about how to live wisely and how the church should have been living together.

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And I’ve had someone come up to me after we had had a talk and had asked,

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well,

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okay,

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so who is the head of your household,

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jen,

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is it you,

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is it brian I said it’s jesus because he’s gonna be our leader,

241
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he needs to be the leader in the household.

242
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He needs to be the leader in the church.

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And then the rest of us are submitting to him and were then cooperating with each each other.

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But I’d say that you’re the one who is a leader in the household.

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I’m a leader in the household too,

246
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but I feel that brian that you’re initiating a lot of things and you’re taking the lead on a lot of things for a lot of decisions,

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but you can’t tell me that I’m not substantially involved in a lot of those things and sometimes it has to do with areas specialty or expertise.

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And I’ve always liked the the example of an incident that happened when we were looking to buy a house and I was talking with the realtor and I was talking with the title company about some paperwork for us to sign off on and what I had told them was listen,

249
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I’m the lawyer,

250
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I I know what’s going on with this.

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I’m ready to approve this.

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However,

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I want to run this by my my husband first,

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not because he’s a lawyer and because he can way into this more than me because the decision is effectively done.

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But I’m not going to run over brian and not bounce this off of him and tell him this is why I think we should sign off on this and why this is a positive thing and not an issue enrolls should always be subservient to team Team.

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Marriage is the key,

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we’re in this together and every person on the team is gonna have a different role and choose your team if it’s a sports team.

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If it’s a work team,

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whatever teams work because everyone is doing something different towards the same goal and so in our family.

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Um,

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and every family is going to have to choose who is the one that has to have the responsibility to be okay.

262
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We’ve deliberated this enough.

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This is the decision.

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Every team,

265
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every organization and that’s not a position of privilege or authority or power.

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It’s a position of responsibility.

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And absolutely.

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And so at some point,

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someone has to say,

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we’re done.

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This is the decision and in our family,

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that that’s usually me,

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that’s the one we talk about it and that’s how it works for us,

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I would say,

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I think that is the best reading of most of the biblical texts.

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But you’ve got to be careful and I would never say that it’s prescriptive.

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I’d say it’s very descriptive because we’ve got to remember of what the society was at the time and what was going on.

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And remember that paul wasn’t giving these household instructions to create a constitution for the family to create.

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Okay,

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this is now how the family should be.

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He was describing family at that time in the context of we’re now resurrection people were now kingdom people.

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Our loyalty is to ge jesus,

283
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not to Zeus,

284
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not to the emperor,

285
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not to the temple in Jerusalem.

286
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Because the temple is jesus and the temple is now the church were loyal to jesus and we’ve got to live like that.

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And starting with all these with these household instructions.

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Everything that paul says,

289
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when you look at Ephesians four.

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Starting verse one says,

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I therefore the pro prisoner of the lord urge you to live worthy li of the calling with which you’ve been called.

292
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You were supposed to live in a worthy manner with all humility,

293
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gentleness and patience,

294
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bearing with one another in love.

295
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Making every effort to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.

296
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So paul is talking about the church,

297
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but that’s what generals really need to be in a marriage,

298
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generals need to be.

299
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How are we functioning with gentleness,

300
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patience,

301
00:16:11,530 –> 00:16:14,150
bearing with one another humility.

302
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Keeping the unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace in our relationship.

303
00:16:19,990 –> 00:16:22,610
So what does that look like though in your mind?

304
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How does that look like in a marriage to live out that description that paul gave us?

305
00:16:28,150 –> 00:16:28,490
Well,

306
00:16:28,490 –> 00:16:29,740
I’m gonna tease a little bit here,

307
00:16:29,740 –> 00:16:33,720
brian and say you’re really good at bearing with me in love,

308
00:16:33,730 –> 00:16:34,600
right?

309
00:16:34,610 –> 00:16:35,940
That’s mutual.

310
00:16:35,950 –> 00:16:38,040
She puts up with a lot from me.

311
00:16:38,530 –> 00:16:45,580
But I really think that when you’re every marriage needs to have it interjected into it humility,

312
00:16:45,590 –> 00:16:46,600
gentleness,

313
00:16:46,600 –> 00:16:47,670
patience,

314
00:16:47,680 –> 00:16:49,590
bearing with one another in love,

315
00:16:49,590 –> 00:16:55,120
keeping that unity of spirit and and that bond of peace to help us to stick together.

316
00:16:55,250 –> 00:17:01,240
And I think a lot of that is listening to what your spouse is,

317
00:17:01,240 –> 00:17:03,990
concerns are to what their needs are,

318
00:17:03,990 –> 00:17:14,260
what their desires are and to be able to the way that I like to put it is in a given situation where a decision needs to be made?

319
00:17:14,270 –> 00:17:16,690
Of course we’re following God.

320
00:17:16,700 –> 00:17:21,200
But in the options that we would have to follow God.

321
00:17:21,210 –> 00:17:26,200
What is the decision that is going to maxim the family?

322
00:17:26,200 –> 00:17:27,270
Moving forward?

323
00:17:27,460 –> 00:17:29,390
Moving forward to follow God,

324
00:17:29,640 –> 00:17:31,830
just benefiting the family.

325
00:17:31,920 –> 00:17:38,270
We need to hear from each other because your perspective is unique to you.

326
00:17:38,270 –> 00:17:42,050
Your experience is who you are and my experience is unique to me.

327
00:17:42,060 –> 00:17:43,650
And so when we’re looking at this,

328
00:17:43,660 –> 00:17:46,660
we both bring something to the table.

329
00:17:46,910 –> 00:17:53,170
That is valuable to the decision and that’s where a lot of misunderstandings about leadership.

330
00:17:53,210 –> 00:17:55,110
Good leaders are good listeners.

331
00:17:55,380 –> 00:17:59,710
If you lead in any area and you don’t listen to the people around you,

332
00:17:59,720 –> 00:18:05,150
you are failing the people that you lied flat out because you may have to make a decision.

333
00:18:05,150 –> 00:18:10,970
You may know things that they don’t know and so you’ve got to make a decision they disagree with perhaps,

334
00:18:10,980 –> 00:18:14,800
but you’ve got to listen and an example because we’re talking about this,

335
00:18:14,810 –> 00:18:17,500
the argument is always gender roles,

336
00:18:17,510 –> 00:18:18,860
dominance and authority.

337
00:18:18,860 –> 00:18:24,590
That’s really where people get tied up and that’s why we’re talking about this and why I talk so much about leadership and who makes decisions.

338
00:18:24,790 –> 00:18:33,130
But I would like to give an example of some people who are making really good decisions right now have recently made good decisions because they listen to their people like what.

339
00:18:33,140 –> 00:18:34,490
So Chief Bass,

340
00:18:34,500 –> 00:18:36,280
the chief match start in the Air Force shout out,

341
00:18:36,280 –> 00:18:37,860
You probably aren’t listening to this,

342
00:18:37,860 –> 00:18:38,660
but if you are.

343
00:18:38,670 –> 00:18:44,610
Thank you so much because we just in the Air Force received a new regulation about how our uniforms,

344
00:18:44,610 –> 00:18:54,380
how to wear our uniforms and everything that changed in there really came from the Airmen in the Air Force wanting something different.

345
00:18:54,390 –> 00:18:55,920
Things that me,

346
00:18:55,920 –> 00:18:57,460
the old crusty senior N.

347
00:18:57,460 –> 00:18:57,720
C.

348
00:18:57,720 –> 00:18:58,050
O.

349
00:18:58,060 –> 00:18:59,380
Why are we doing this?

350
00:18:59,390 –> 00:19:00,600
I think this is stupid.

351
00:19:00,600 –> 00:19:02,270
I think it looks unprofessional.

352
00:19:02,280 –> 00:19:06,180
But Chief Bass listening to the Airman decided her and her team decided no,

353
00:19:06,180 –> 00:19:10,890
we’re going to do this because I’m going to listen to the airman and let them know that I hear about them and care about them.

354
00:19:10,930 –> 00:19:13,910
Hands in pockets forever.

355
00:19:13,920 –> 00:19:18,120
We haven’t been allowed to keep our hands in our pockets when we’re walking when we’re standing hands in your pockets.

356
00:19:18,120 –> 00:19:20,960
Well now we can walking with the cell phone.

357
00:19:21,120 –> 00:19:21,960
The rule has always been,

358
00:19:21,960 –> 00:19:22,830
if you’re gonna talk your cellphone,

359
00:19:22,830 –> 00:19:23,720
you stop,

360
00:19:23,880 –> 00:19:25,210
step off the sidewalk,

361
00:19:25,350 –> 00:19:27,290
finish your conversation and then keep walking.

362
00:19:27,410 –> 00:19:28,850
Those are things that change.

363
00:19:28,960 –> 00:19:34,520
Not necessarily because they’re going to make us the Air force fly jets better,

364
00:19:34,530 –> 00:19:37,310
but they’re going to make the community better.

365
00:19:37,320 –> 00:19:37,610
Hey,

366
00:19:37,610 –> 00:19:40,940
these are the things the airmen want and that’s going to make us fly jets better.

367
00:19:40,950 –> 00:19:42,750
So that’s the same way with us,

368
00:19:42,750 –> 00:19:43,000
right?

369
00:19:43,000 –> 00:19:43,780
When you’re leading,

370
00:19:43,780 –> 00:19:44,820
when we’re making decisions,

371
00:19:44,830 –> 00:19:48,100
we’ve got to hear from each other and then make decisions,

372
00:19:48,110 –> 00:19:51,840
even if it’s like that’s not the decision I want to make or I would make.

373
00:19:51,850 –> 00:19:59,420
But I’m listening and we’re gonna make sure that everyone’s involved and encouraged and we’re all focus on growing more like jesus,

374
00:19:59,550 –> 00:20:04,660
but what I also wanted to delve into a little bit more is what you have brought up a little bit ago,

375
00:20:04,660 –> 00:20:13,740
which is just talking about being domineering and I think that if you’ve got a domineering wife or a domineering husband in a relationship,

376
00:20:13,750 –> 00:20:14,190
it’s,

377
00:20:14,200 –> 00:20:18,680
it’s gonna rip the couple apart and it’s going to result in a bad marriage,

378
00:20:18,690 –> 00:20:19,710
if not a divorce.

379
00:20:19,710 –> 00:20:21,130
Ultimately that would happen.

380
00:20:21,130 –> 00:20:32,210
It’s just not a healthy environment and anything that jesus would command of wives behave like this or husbands behave like that.

381
00:20:32,220 –> 00:20:34,170
A lot of those instructions.

382
00:20:34,180 –> 00:20:38,300
I see that as if you’re going to be that people of christ,

383
00:20:38,310 –> 00:20:40,010
it’s across the board,

384
00:20:40,020 –> 00:20:45,530
although those specific directions to a husband to a wife have to be be handled,

385
00:20:45,540 –> 00:20:55,220
but if the idea that someone would walk away with that is I’m going to be domineering and I’m going to be oppressive and unkind towards my spouse.

386
00:20:55,230 –> 00:20:58,470
That just doesn’t jive with what the bible says,

387
00:20:58,480 –> 00:20:59,970
dominance is never okay,

388
00:20:59,980 –> 00:21:02,030
being a good christ follower,

389
00:21:02,030 –> 00:21:04,860
you cannot be a dominant domineering person.

390
00:21:04,860 –> 00:21:06,220
Our example is jesus,

391
00:21:06,380 –> 00:21:14,590
he showed up in the most humble way possible and died in the most embarrassing way possible at the time because he loved us so much.

392
00:21:14,600 –> 00:21:16,720
Everything we have comes from God,

393
00:21:16,720 –> 00:21:20,470
giving of himself to us and he doesn’t get anything back.

394
00:21:20,830 –> 00:21:23,750
There’s nothing that he gains from us,

395
00:21:23,750 –> 00:21:26,310
He gives everything out of love.

396
00:21:26,360 –> 00:21:29,510
God has the power to be dominant and he’s not,

397
00:21:29,750 –> 00:21:30,050
you know,

398
00:21:30,050 –> 00:21:30,560
Yes,

399
00:21:30,560 –> 00:21:31,860
he is supreme.

400
00:21:31,860 –> 00:21:32,050
Yes,

401
00:21:32,050 –> 00:21:32,980
he is sovereign,

402
00:21:32,990 –> 00:21:42,920
but his nature is to give and domineering and dominance is just not uh the way christians live,

403
00:21:42,930 –> 00:21:50,640
that’s not what you do and that doesn’t matter what level of leadership where you are um in the church outside the church and this is the great thing.

404
00:21:50,640 –> 00:21:55,640
We have the opportunity we have as a couple because we,

405
00:21:55,890 –> 00:22:03,230
when we follow these household regulations that are these household rules that paul puts out,

406
00:22:03,240 –> 00:22:08,910
we get to be an example to our church family and to our neighborhood,

407
00:22:08,910 –> 00:22:09,750
to our community,

408
00:22:09,750 –> 00:22:18,130
to our co workers about what true loving and truly living in God’s kingdom looks like that’s very much the case.

409
00:22:18,130 –> 00:22:21,280
And you look at the book of titus very quickly.

410
00:22:21,280 –> 00:22:36,260
It it talks about doing your duties and your roles that are supposed to be connected to the household and I would argue that that’s going to be different between what the different households are and how you’ve structured how,

411
00:22:36,270 –> 00:22:38,850
how chores would be taken care of.

412
00:22:38,860 –> 00:22:39,510
But again,

413
00:22:39,510 –> 00:22:40,580
whatever you’re doing,

414
00:22:40,590 –> 00:22:42,550
you do that to the glory of God.

415
00:22:42,560 –> 00:22:52,430
And I think with a lot of things you have to be somewhat liquid that things can change just that that kind of flex and flow.

416
00:22:52,430 –> 00:23:11,780
If you have a spouse who’s sick if you have a spouse who’s out of town due to deployment or otherwise that you’d have to sometimes step up and fill out some duties or maybe you’re changing different duties just as your marriage continues on and the household grows because sometimes when you’re dealing with babies,

417
00:23:11,790 –> 00:23:13,860
you need to be doing laundry all the time.

418
00:23:13,860 –> 00:23:15,200
And that’s just a fact.

419
00:23:15,210 –> 00:23:15,520
Yeah.

420
00:23:15,530 –> 00:23:19,760
So we’ve talked about kind of these household regulations and what it looks like in the home.

421
00:23:19,850 –> 00:23:29,730
Let’s jump a little bit earlier in the bible and talk about the nature of masculinity and femininity rolling all the way.

422
00:23:29,730 –> 00:23:34,320
And we’re probably going to either side of the egalitarian and complementary in argument,

423
00:23:34,320 –> 00:23:35,790
we’re probably going to make both mad,

424
00:23:35,890 –> 00:23:36,320
um,

425
00:23:36,330 –> 00:23:38,670
for those of you who aren’t familiar with those theological terms.

426
00:23:38,670 –> 00:23:46,510
Egalitarian at its most extreme is the idea that men and women creating the image of God are completely equal.

427
00:23:46,510 –> 00:23:48,460
There’s no difference whatsoever.

428
00:23:48,470 –> 00:23:51,630
I know that’s a thumbnail sketch all of you.

429
00:23:51,640 –> 00:23:52,910
Egalitarian theologians.

430
00:23:52,910 –> 00:23:54,070
You can make fun of me later.

431
00:23:54,080 –> 00:23:55,750
That’s the extreme side of it.

432
00:23:55,760 –> 00:24:02,980
On the extreme complimentary inside is the difference the coinciding differences between men and women.

433
00:24:02,990 –> 00:24:08,170
And they’ve taken that to the point where women belong in the home belong doing the dishes,

434
00:24:08,180 –> 00:24:14,100
making the food a lot of those traditional agrarian roles that women took on while the men were outside home.

435
00:24:14,100 –> 00:24:20,780
So those are the extreme examples on this continuum and we’re not on either side of that totally.

436
00:24:20,780 –> 00:24:21,790
But we do want to talk about,

437
00:24:21,790 –> 00:24:27,420
there is something about masculinity and femininity and there are differences.

438
00:24:27,560 –> 00:24:30,720
Men and women aren’t just biologically and physically different.

439
00:24:31,110 –> 00:24:39,930
And this is documented time and time again about how women perceive even something as simple as you see more colors than I do.

440
00:24:39,950 –> 00:24:41,090
And truth.

441
00:24:41,100 –> 00:24:52,590
We joke about this when we’re picking paint colors and finally we just give up and you pick the paint color because I can’t see the difference of the colors in genesis 2 18 The Lord God said it is not good for the man to be alone.

442
00:24:52,600 –> 00:24:57,190
I will make a command a companion for him who corresponds to him,

443
00:24:57,200 –> 00:25:00,550
that companion who corresponds to him.

444
00:25:00,560 –> 00:25:06,550
That is traditionally translated with the english word helper.

445
00:25:07,300 –> 00:25:15,000
And what’s your reaction when you hear that woman was created to be man’s help.

446
00:25:15,010 –> 00:25:17,410
What’s your initial reaction to hearing that?

447
00:25:17,420 –> 00:25:17,740
Well,

448
00:25:17,740 –> 00:25:21,060
I think it’s about taking it in the context of what the bible is,

449
00:25:21,070 –> 00:25:21,440
right,

450
00:25:21,450 –> 00:25:32,190
because God describes himself as a helper to people and he’s the ceo the creator of the youth universe,

451
00:25:32,200 –> 00:25:37,310
but he’s still there to be helpful to us as his Children.

452
00:25:37,320 –> 00:25:39,970
I’m I’m there to help Jonathan,

453
00:25:39,970 –> 00:25:40,910
our 10 year old,

454
00:25:40,910 –> 00:25:43,130
although sometimes I’m giving him way more help,

455
00:25:43,130 –> 00:25:52,600
which I’m and I’m sure that that for a given task and I’m sure that God is continually giving me more help in a given task than I’m even understanding,

456
00:25:52,630 –> 00:26:03,170
but I think that that’s the thing where the woman was created not to be a slave or a complete servant of the man,

457
00:26:03,180 –> 00:26:06,130
but to be that corresponding helper.

458
00:26:06,140 –> 00:26:07,690
But he was already there.

459
00:26:07,690 –> 00:26:14,650
So I’m thinking he’s there to be that corresponding helper for her as well under the lordship of of God.

460
00:26:14,660 –> 00:26:17,510
A lot of people have a problem with that word helper though,

461
00:26:17,510 –> 00:26:17,920
right?

462
00:26:18,130 –> 00:26:18,360
You know,

463
00:26:18,360 –> 00:26:25,710
a lot of people feel that helper is by definition the way helper is thought of in our culture,

464
00:26:25,720 –> 00:26:33,440
they think of helper as being less than even how we use it in professional like teaching or um environments.

465
00:26:33,440 –> 00:26:34,710
You’ve got the teacher’s helper,

466
00:26:34,720 –> 00:26:38,030
you’ve got the teacher and then you got the teacher’s helper.

467
00:26:38,160 –> 00:26:42,940
Teacher’s helper is important but they can’t do anything on their own.

468
00:26:42,950 –> 00:26:47,690
They only do what the teacher tells them and that’s not the intent,

469
00:26:47,690 –> 00:26:48,390
which I like,

470
00:26:48,410 –> 00:26:53,750
I like the N E T translation better because it translates that word and for the bible nerds,

471
00:26:53,760 –> 00:26:57,650
it’s the word eser is the word used and like jen said,

472
00:26:57,670 –> 00:27:05,370
God uses that word to describe himself a lot in this um not a rock band but sounds like it.

473
00:27:05,380 –> 00:27:11,610
Wheezer did an awesome cover of Toto’s africa easer is the word that God uses for helper.

474
00:27:11,620 –> 00:27:17,810
There’s this article in judaica in 86 by Rosenzweig,

475
00:27:17,820 –> 00:27:20,420
I apologize sir if I totally brutalized your name,

476
00:27:20,670 –> 00:27:30,820
but at the end of it says the woman would supply what the man was lacking in the design of creation and logically it would follow that the man would supply what she was lacking.

477
00:27:30,830 –> 00:27:32,430
Although it is not stated here.

478
00:27:32,580 –> 00:27:34,740
So here’s what the helper does.

479
00:27:34,750 –> 00:27:38,830
They bring something to the table that the original did not have.

480
00:27:38,850 –> 00:27:42,080
So you bring something to the table that I don’t have.

481
00:27:42,140 –> 00:27:42,700
You know,

482
00:27:42,710 –> 00:27:43,750
your intellect,

483
00:27:43,750 –> 00:27:45,160
your way of doing things.

484
00:27:45,160 –> 00:27:49,310
You bring something to our marriage and something to me that was lacking.

485
00:27:49,350 –> 00:27:50,900
Oh and likewise you for me,

486
00:27:50,900 –> 00:27:51,240
right?

487
00:27:51,250 –> 00:27:51,820
Absolutely.

488
00:27:51,830 –> 00:27:52,760
And you,

489
00:27:52,770 –> 00:27:54,780
you are the one who’s structured,

490
00:27:54,790 –> 00:28:08,360
You’re the one who’s planning and organizing and gets very specific and you are also really good at making sure we’re accomplishing something as a family that we’re moving forward that we’re doing something that we’re being responsible.

491
00:28:08,410 –> 00:28:09,370
That’s very true.

492
00:28:09,370 –> 00:28:15,010
Although looking at the top of my desk or the organizational thing would say otherwise.

493
00:28:15,010 –> 00:28:16,010
But that’s very true.

494
00:28:16,010 –> 00:28:23,600
We like to be regimented in some of these things and make sure that that’s good to go for the family and I’m the one that’s going to bring spontaneity always.

495
00:28:23,610 –> 00:28:25,140
I’m the one that’s going to,

496
00:28:25,340 –> 00:28:26,510
let’s go play.

497
00:28:26,560 –> 00:28:28,810
This is just let’s go do something crazy.

498
00:28:28,890 –> 00:28:30,100
And then you look at me,

499
00:28:30,100 –> 00:28:30,370
it’s like,

500
00:28:30,370 –> 00:28:30,670
okay,

501
00:28:30,670 –> 00:28:34,630
that’s really crazy and then I convinced you to do the crazy thing with me.

502
00:28:35,440 –> 00:28:38,810
I’m checking the funds to make sure we can facilitate the crazy.

503
00:28:38,820 –> 00:28:42,110
Like buying my beautiful 55 gallon saltwater aquarium that I enjoy.

504
00:28:42,120 –> 00:28:42,620
Oh that’s,

505
00:28:42,620 –> 00:28:45,270
that’s another podcast episode altogether babe.

506
00:28:45,280 –> 00:28:48,990
But then also at the same time when it comes to discipline,

507
00:28:49,040 –> 00:28:52,710
I’m more comfortable in the role of okay,

508
00:28:52,720 –> 00:28:55,080
now we’re going to enforce the discipline with the Children,

509
00:28:55,090 –> 00:28:56,240
not that you don’t,

510
00:28:56,240 –> 00:28:57,400
you discipline the Children,

511
00:28:57,410 –> 00:29:00,490
but I’m more comfortable in that role and as parents,

512
00:29:00,500 –> 00:29:01,530
as a team,

513
00:29:01,810 –> 00:29:03,750
I’m the one who oftentimes is bringing the,

514
00:29:03,750 –> 00:29:05,880
okay now we’re gonna do this,

515
00:29:05,890 –> 00:29:08,520
you’re the one making sure our family structure and everything.

516
00:29:08,520 –> 00:29:18,040
But when it comes down to one of us has to get control of the Children a little more and communicate discipline and enforce um those consequences.

517
00:29:18,050 –> 00:29:18,940
I’m my temperament,

518
00:29:18,940 –> 00:29:19,920
I’m more comfortable with that.

519
00:29:19,930 –> 00:29:21,050
That’s very true.

520
00:29:21,060 –> 00:29:27,660
Also we need to leave room to say we’re talking about our marriage and this is how we’ve worked it out.

521
00:29:27,670 –> 00:29:30,330
But there are so many different people,

522
00:29:30,330 –> 00:29:34,960
different talents and in their marriages where they can be very,

523
00:29:34,960 –> 00:29:38,640
very successful in their marriages even though they’re very different.

524
00:29:38,650 –> 00:29:44,440
And brian was kind of looking at me because I was googling on my cell phone because this is the podcast,

525
00:29:44,920 –> 00:29:45,330
right?

526
00:29:45,340 –> 00:29:48,270
But brian is looking at me weird because I’m googling on my cell phone,

527
00:29:48,270 –> 00:29:48,870
ralph Lauren,

528
00:29:48,870 –> 00:29:49,220
he’s like,

529
00:29:49,220 –> 00:29:49,500
gosh,

530
00:29:49,500 –> 00:29:52,220
are you shopping while we’re recording this podcast?

531
00:29:52,280 –> 00:30:01,070
But I was looking up Ralph Lauren personally because a lot of times people will think of women as being for Very fashion forward.

532
00:30:01,070 –> 00:30:03,860
But he’s a very successful designer.

533
00:30:03,860 –> 00:30:07,420
So he might have more of that eye for color than I’m gonna have.

534
00:30:07,450 –> 00:30:08,740
Even as a woman,

535
00:30:08,750 –> 00:30:14,910
he’s been married since 1960 for and he and his wife have three Children together.

536
00:30:14,940 –> 00:30:22,500
So even though he’s not necessarily in a stereotypical industry being led by men,

537
00:30:22,500 –> 00:30:28,550
he certainly is a man who has the lead in that particular company and has been very successful at that.

538
00:30:28,560 –> 00:30:32,650
And I’d be interested to peek into how his family is because again,

539
00:30:32,660 –> 00:30:34,920
happily married since 1964.

540
00:30:34,940 –> 00:30:35,320
Yeah,

541
00:30:35,320 –> 00:30:36,170
that’s interesting.

542
00:30:36,170 –> 00:30:37,560
And you make a good point.

543
00:30:37,570 –> 00:30:41,040
We share illustrations from our marriage because that’s the marriage we know best.

544
00:30:41,240 –> 00:30:52,030
But it’s definitely there are things that are moving and it’s different for your marriage and we don’t want to ever say your marriage should be like our marriage because it absolutely shouldn’t because you’re not us,

545
00:30:52,260 –> 00:30:58,080
but at the same time we do want to say that you complement each other,

546
00:30:58,500 –> 00:30:59,870
whatever that is,

547
00:30:59,880 –> 00:31:05,600
You bring something to your spouse that they need and your spouse brings something to you that you need.

548
00:31:05,610 –> 00:31:09,850
And it’s very unique to your relationship.

549
00:31:09,860 –> 00:31:17,220
But it’s important that you acknowledge that and are ready to work in that.

550
00:31:17,230 –> 00:31:20,740
And sometimes it’s going to be clear from,

551
00:31:20,750 –> 00:31:21,080
hey,

552
00:31:21,080 –> 00:31:22,890
this is what things look like in the bible.

553
00:31:22,890 –> 00:31:25,970
Sometimes you’re gonna look at things and look at the side again,

554
00:31:26,330 –> 00:31:32,800
an asian family versus the north american families structure is going to be different because the culture is different.

555
00:31:32,800 –> 00:31:34,510
That’s okay different parts of the world.

556
00:31:34,520 –> 00:31:36,010
It’s going to be different.

557
00:31:36,020 –> 00:31:43,180
You need to define those roles and you need to allow yourselves and each other to be complements to each other.

558
00:31:43,240 –> 00:31:45,990
That’s really where it comes down to in gender roles.

559
00:31:46,000 –> 00:31:48,680
It’s not the woman will do this,

560
00:31:48,690 –> 00:31:49,930
the man will do this.

561
00:31:50,000 –> 00:31:54,040
There are uniqueness is there are differences where they complement each other,

562
00:31:54,050 –> 00:32:00,400
but you need to define what your roles are and you need to work to complement each other.

563
00:32:00,400 –> 00:32:02,860
If you want to thrive as a couple,

564
00:32:02,910 –> 00:32:04,630
it can’t be competition,

565
00:32:04,790 –> 00:32:06,970
it can’t be dominance,

566
00:32:07,010 –> 00:32:09,400
it can’t be my way or the highway.

567
00:32:09,410 –> 00:32:13,000
And it can’t be one of those situations where,

568
00:32:13,150 –> 00:32:13,500
you know,

569
00:32:13,500 –> 00:32:16,440
we teach our kids when they’re playing games when you’ve got it.

570
00:32:16,440 –> 00:32:17,370
You got it,

571
00:32:17,370 –> 00:32:17,670
I got it,

572
00:32:17,670 –> 00:32:18,100
I got it.

573
00:32:18,110 –> 00:32:19,720
You cannot be out there,

574
00:32:19,720 –> 00:32:20,250
you get it,

575
00:32:20,250 –> 00:32:20,690
you get it,

576
00:32:20,690 –> 00:32:21,220
you get it,

577
00:32:21,230 –> 00:32:22,390
you gotta work together.

578
00:32:22,400 –> 00:32:23,380
Hey,

579
00:32:23,390 –> 00:32:25,430
I’m going to use a baseball analogy here,

580
00:32:25,440 –> 00:32:26,580
You’re in center field,

581
00:32:26,590 –> 00:32:27,460
I’m in right field.

582
00:32:27,470 –> 00:32:28,600
If it’s in right field,

583
00:32:28,610 –> 00:32:29,160
I got it.

584
00:32:29,170 –> 00:32:30,300
If it’s in center field,

585
00:32:30,310 –> 00:32:31,690
then I don’t have to tell you,

586
00:32:31,690 –> 00:32:33,390
you got it because you’re gonna be yelling at me.

587
00:32:33,390 –> 00:32:33,910
I got it,

588
00:32:33,910 –> 00:32:34,370
I got it,

589
00:32:34,380 –> 00:32:39,880
I got it and we got to fill those gaps together and there will be conflict.

590
00:32:40,390 –> 00:32:44,870
There’s gonna be times where you disagree on what it is,

591
00:32:44,870 –> 00:32:50,810
especially early on in marriage when you’re just learning how to live together,

592
00:32:50,820 –> 00:32:51,780
there’s gonna be conflict.

593
00:32:51,780 –> 00:32:54,610
But also every phase when things change,

594
00:32:54,850 –> 00:32:56,210
there’s gonna be conflict.

595
00:32:56,740 –> 00:33:05,270
And so you’ve got to work that conflict out together and be comfortable discussing that and then building that relationship,

596
00:33:05,280 –> 00:33:06,750
identifying those roles,

597
00:33:06,750 –> 00:33:08,060
complimenting each other.

598
00:33:08,060 –> 00:33:10,630
Then you can move forward together as a couple.

599
00:33:11,060 –> 00:33:14,390
Thank you for joining us on the operation thriving marriage podcast.

600
00:33:14,720 –> 00:33:24,960
We want to be a part of God’s plan for marriage is to thrive around the world and you can help us do that by subscribing rating and reviewing this podcast on whatever service you use as an added bonus.

601
00:33:25,070 –> 00:33:26,780
If you subscribe or review,

602
00:33:26,790 –> 00:33:29,350
you’ll be entered into a drawing for a free copy of our book.

603
00:33:29,350 –> 00:33:30,840
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604
00:33:30,850 –> 00:33:32,810
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605
00:33:32,820 –> 00:33:37,500
If you share your thoughts on social media about the podcast with the hashtag operation,

606
00:33:37,500 –> 00:33:38,540
thriving marriage.

607
00:33:38,980 –> 00:33:41,940
We have another opportunity for you to help your marriage thrive.

608
00:33:42,140 –> 00:33:47,750
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609
00:33:47,890 –> 00:33:54,140
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610
00:33:54,150 –> 00:33:57,310
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611
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612
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613
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614
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615
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616
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617
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618
00:34:13,350 –> 00:34:17,000
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619
00:34:17,010 –> 00:34:18,690
We look forward to meeting you in person.

Filed Under: Uncategorized

Unexpectations

August 10, 2022 by Bryon Harvey

1
00:00:10,260 –> 00:00:13,800
one of my favorites too is of course media like television shows,

2
00:00:13,810 –> 00:00:22,550
you don’t want to base your expectations of marriage off of media and tv shows and movies that that’s just going to get you in trouble,

3
00:00:22,560 –> 00:00:22,900
wait a minute,

4
00:00:22,910 –> 00:00:31,510
you’re telling me that every conflict can be resolved in 55 minutes with commercials shockingly not especially those legal dramas right?

5
00:00:31,520 –> 00:00:31,940
It’s like,

6
00:00:31,940 –> 00:00:34,100
hey that that serious sex in the city,

7
00:00:34,110 –> 00:00:35,550
so amusing,

8
00:00:35,550 –> 00:00:42,690
but you don’t want to live into that choice.

9
00:00:42,690 –> 00:00:43,830
Away from driving,

10
00:00:44,520 –> 00:00:45,750
welcome to the operation.

11
00:00:54,040 –> 00:00:54,630
Alright,

12
00:00:54,630 –> 00:00:57,980
so we’re back in the studio and having a great day,

13
00:00:57,980 –> 00:00:58,700
how you doing today,

14
00:00:58,700 –> 00:00:59,160
sweetie,

15
00:00:59,170 –> 00:01:00,130
Hey things are going well,

16
00:01:00,130 –> 00:01:00,710
things are going well,

17
00:01:00,710 –> 00:01:03,350
how about you doing all right over here?

18
00:01:03,350 –> 00:01:24,165
I I think that just just kinda work wise and otherwise we’re kind of rolling into the christmas season and just trying to make sure that we’re getting all the things done uh so that we’re able to enjoy some of these festivities and keep some of these holiday traditions that we have as a family and and into the greater community here,

19
00:01:24,175 –> 00:01:32,640
that kind of fits in well with our topic today right with un expectations because with two kids and christmas coming up plus a birthday coming up,

20
00:01:32,640 –> 00:01:33,940
we’ve got a lot of expectations.

21
00:01:33,940 –> 00:01:34,870
We got two birthdays,

22
00:01:34,870 –> 00:01:35,460
my friends,

23
00:01:35,460 –> 00:01:36,660
the only one that matters,

24
00:01:36,670 –> 00:01:40,940
oh well we got your birthday and Brenda’s birthday but mine is the only one that matters.

25
00:01:40,950 –> 00:01:44,040
Oh I thought we were saying that jesus was the only one that matters but you know,

26
00:01:44,040 –> 00:01:46,090
we’ll just kind of kind of roll about that one.

27
00:01:46,100 –> 00:01:46,600
Yeah.

28
00:01:46,600 –> 00:02:05,257
I think that the the expectations are a big thing that that’s important to manage because it it just seems like every disagreement every time someone’s feelings are hurt every time there’s some relational issues that’s going to be because expectations were met and but that’s kind of your job too,

29
00:02:05,257 –> 00:02:05,647
right?

30
00:02:05,657 –> 00:02:08,677
I mean as a lawyer isn’t a big part of your job,

31
00:02:08,677 –> 00:02:10,657
just managing people’s expectations.

32
00:02:10,667 –> 00:02:15,807
I think it’s forever managing expectations because sometimes people come to me and it’s,

33
00:02:15,817 –> 00:02:17,387
the idea is,

34
00:02:17,397 –> 00:02:17,997
you know,

35
00:02:17,997 –> 00:02:26,344
you’re you’re the overpaid janitor who’s going to be cleaning up the big mess that it happened and I’m happy to come in and help clients as I’m able to do.

36
00:02:26,344 –> 00:02:34,704
But sometimes people do have big gaps and expectations just as to what the law would provide for them and what is actually going to be happening.

37
00:02:34,704 –> 00:02:47,931
So it’s really important for me to get in there and let them know what what their legal rights are and what their responsibilities are by law and just kind of see what we can do to uh figure Things out.

38
00:02:47,931 –> 00:02:50,781
Because I always tell people any time that there’s going to be a legal dispute,

39
00:02:50,781 –> 00:02:54,071
nobody’s getting a pony that that’s just not happening.

40
00:02:54,161 –> 00:03:01,591
And you’ve talked about this before with estate plans that you’ve drawn up to just letting people reasonable expectations of what they can put in their estate plan.

41
00:03:01,591 –> 00:03:07,191
You cannot say that sister sally will feed my turtle to worms every day at 3:00.

42
00:03:07,191 –> 00:03:17,960
There’s limits to what they can even put in their documentation and then obviously we have this idea of what is right or what is wrong or what we should or shouldn’t be able to do.

43
00:03:17,960 –> 00:03:27,430
But the law is written by lawyers and legislators and it doesn’t really take into account my personal feelings about it no doubt about it.

44
00:03:27,430 –> 00:03:28,600
And and side note too,

45
00:03:28,600 –> 00:03:31,200
if here’s your free legal advice for the day,

46
00:03:31,200 –> 00:03:34,460
which is just as far as uh personal property,

47
00:03:34,460 –> 00:03:40,370
like if you want to leave julie or or other personal effects to somebody and you’re not using it now,

48
00:03:40,370 –> 00:03:49,980
give it to them now so you can see them enjoy it during their lifetime because I see that tangible personal property like the jewelry you passed away and it disappears because somebody took it.

49
00:03:50,140 –> 00:03:50,350
Yeah,

50
00:03:50,350 –> 00:03:51,420
that’s that’s a good point.

51
00:03:51,430 –> 00:03:52,260
So yeah.

52
00:03:52,270 –> 00:03:59,350
And they were expecting to get one thing like you said and pay attention this as you’re listening because I think this is really important.

53
00:03:59,440 –> 00:04:07,450
Every fight you’ve ever had in your marriage started because of an unmet expectation.

54
00:04:07,510 –> 00:04:08,480
Isn’t that the truth?

55
00:04:08,490 –> 00:04:09,310
Everything we argue about.

56
00:04:09,310 –> 00:04:15,150
I mean it’s an expectation and then we talk to these young couples that are getting ready to be married and they’re they’re all,

57
00:04:15,160 –> 00:04:17,300
I have no expectations.

58
00:04:17,300 –> 00:04:23,110
They just go with the flow or its communicate in some way that if I expect something,

59
00:04:23,110 –> 00:04:23,450
it’s bad.

60
00:04:23,450 –> 00:04:28,840
If I if I expect you to do this or that that expectation is wrong,

61
00:04:28,840 –> 00:04:34,590
I shouldn’t expect anything of you and I should just be happy with whatever you bring to the marriage and whatever is going on.

62
00:04:34,600 –> 00:04:35,640
That doesn’t really make sense though,

63
00:04:35,640 –> 00:04:36,070
does it?

64
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That’s just not how a marriage can run that.

65
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That’s not how a society can run either.

66
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Because just for traffic rules,

67
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you have to have the expectation that people are going to follow the rules and stay on their side of the street or else there’s chaos.

68
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And I think that’s certainly the same in the marriage relationship or any other relation to Yeah,

69
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expectations in themselves aren’t bad.

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It’s not bad to expect your spouse to be faithful.

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It’s not bad to expect that the house will be clean.

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It depends on the day.

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But no,

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I I hear you,

75
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we wanna,

76
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you know,

77
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but we want to have a certain level of cleanliness and kind of schedule from for cleaning things up.

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Yeah.

79
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And also,

80
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I mean,

81
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just from from the christian perspective,

82
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God expects a lot of us,

83
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you know,

84
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it’s not just okay,

85
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I believe in you God and I can do whatever I want.

86
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You look through scripture.

87
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I mean paul in those letters is laying out these are my expectations because these are God’s expectations.

88
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And the big one of course is jesus said um that if we loved him we would follow his commands that we would do what he said?

89
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And God says to us in Leviticus be holy as I am holy.

90
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And it’s it’s not just that’s not just made up,

91
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that’s a pretty high expectation.

92
00:05:46,030 –> 00:05:56,680
Well it it’s a high expectation but I mean talk about rights and responsibilities that were talked about a little bit before because um when you do enter into God’s family,

93
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you have significant rights and significant benefits.

94
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But God just like the bed father in the world because he is,

95
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he’s going to have some significant expectations of us just as to the rules that we’re going to fill and the things that are required of us.

96
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And of course coming into the family has to happen before all of these rules can attach.

97
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You can’t try to conquer the rules and then enter the family.

98
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You need to accept christ’s gift to us to enter that family,

99
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right?

100
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I mean God expects us to grow in christ likeness and that’s why we’re here to learn to live that kingdom living.

101
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But in marriage,

102
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like we talked about every fight comes from an unmet expectation and unmet expectations.

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There’s a few common reasons that the expectation would be unmet.

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And in the book we call these un expectations and one is unveiled,

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voiced expectations that aren’t communicated unshared presumed norms.

106
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And then unreasonable expectations.

107
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Talk a little bit about invoiced expectations.

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What is when we’re talking about that in the book?

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Are we talking about unmet expectations.

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invoiced,

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How does that fit in?

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Oh,

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and I think that that’s just such a tough thing because it’s a lot of assumptions there because those un voice expectations are those expectations that just aren’t communicated.

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And someone in the marriage,

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one spouse can be upset or offended that the other spouse’s handling say spending or habits or going out with friends or whatever the case may be in a certain way,

116
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but that other spouse expect to be a different way.

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Nothing was voiced and communicated to to the other spouse.

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So the other spouse things,

119
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everything’s coming up roses and good to go.

120
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But the other spouse,

121
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they had the other expectations doesn’t feel that way and that can lead to a lot of conflict,

122
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especially if it’s not communicated and discussed communication again,

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it just seems like a lot of this ends up coming just back to communication,

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we have to talk about it.

125
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So that’s the truth.

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I think that’s a big thing too,

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is when you’re looking at something and what you expected to happen didn’t happen.

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I think that’s the first stop.

129
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Is did I even say anything.

130
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Did I tell so I tell my spouse this is what I expected to happen.

131
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I think that that’s a huge thing.

132
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Um and I think when approaching a spouse about that,

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it’s just kind of like goodness.

134
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I I thought that something else completely different was going to happen and this other thing happened.

135
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So I don’t think that that confrontation if you will should come from a place of I know best or my way is the best or the only way to do it.

136
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It’s just,

137
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wow,

138
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I had a completely different expectation and understanding of what was going to happen,

139
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right?

140
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That team marriage concept,

141
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we’re always talking about presume goodwill,

142
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presume that they didn’t intend for you to upset you or hurt you.

143
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Presume that they want the marriage to be successful because they do just didn’t know about it.

144
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That’s it.

145
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And we also talked but unshared expectations.

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These expectations are presumed norms,

147
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things that aren’t the same though,

148
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I presume that this is the way the world works.

149
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And some of the places we get this from me and our family of origin is huge,

150
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right?

151
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We learn first what a marriage looks like by watching our parents marriage or we learn what we want or don’t want depending on how we view our parents marriage,

152
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but expectations for marriage first come from the first marriage we see or if we come from a family where it’s a single parent,

153
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it’s the relationship that that single parent has if any with other romantic partners,

154
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it’s like you see a boyfriend or a girlfriend come home,

155
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things like that,

156
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we learn what people should or should not do we presume based on what we watch when we’re Children.

157
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Well,

158
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sure,

159
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it’s like that,

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that’s the family of origin that you’re coming out of just has such a substantial impact on you whether you know it or not what so you wanted to or not because it is modeling how you would just think every household would be.

161
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And I think a lot of times people getting into maybe their teens,

162
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they can see that there can be some differences.

163
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But of course you’re going to assume that’s how everybody grows up right?

164
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Because you don’t know any better.

165
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I mean that’s always the problem with cross cultural mission stuff as well.

166
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Right.

167
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We think that everyone has the same value system as we do here in America because we haven’t experienced it.

168
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Otherwise that’s one thing I’m grateful for growing up as an army brat is I got to travel and see things and learn,

169
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oh wait a minute.

170
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What we value here in America is different from what they value in other countries and the same is so true with family of origin.

171
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I mean your family growing up was so different from mine.

172
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You guys pretty much stayed in michigan except for that brief stint in Tennessee and just kind of lived in the suburbs of Detroit where I had the expectations every three or four years we were moving and even like when we first got married we were living in that condo and after three years I’m like man,

173
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we’ve lived here a long time,

174
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it’s time to move because I was so used to moving around so much.

175
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Oh,

176
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certainly,

177
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but it,

178
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but I think that um,

179
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societies,

180
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different cultures,

181
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different countries,

182
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what your nationality is,

183
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that that’s always going to have a substantial impact.

184
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And sometimes it can be hilarious because everybody identifies with the movie,

185
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my big fat greek wedding and just plug in whatever cultural kind of family that,

186
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that you’d be coming out of into that just because there’s always something that’s going to be different from mainstream America and that’s okay.

187
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But just try to understand what the differences are.

188
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I guess the big thing about that too is every marriage and extent is my big fat greek wedding,

189
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right?

190
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Because I mean,

191
00:11:27,522 –> 00:11:40,202
it’s very obvious when you have the typical middle class american guy marrying into this proud greek family with that significantly different experience than that typical middle class american.

192
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But even getting out my Windex right now brian.

193
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But even if you are,

194
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if you come from the same town,

195
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you still have,

196
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it’s still just as different.

197
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It’s just not as obviously different because it’s easier to presume if you both come from the same socioeconomic background that you live the same,

198
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we went to the same high school or similar high schools in the same town.

199
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We went to the same college,

200
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Things like that,

201
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we can think that there’s more in common than there really is.

202
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No,

203
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no doubt about it.

204
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I think you,

205
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you saw that a little bit on um,

206
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maybe you did brian,

207
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but on the,

208
00:12:10,785 –> 00:12:11,945
on the Gilmore girls,

209
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you know,

210
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I did not,

211
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I did not see that on the Gilmore girls.

212
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Just the idea of Rory’s best friends,

213
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family is a christian korean family and her mom wanted her to marry a christian guy who was korean.

214
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So even in that situation,

215
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the families themselves are going to be different.

216
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And another place we get unshared expectations about marriage,

217
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those from our friends,

218
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you know,

219
00:12:32,565 –> 00:12:36,775
people talk about marriage and it starts when you’re,

220
00:12:37,080 –> 00:12:39,990
I mean for some of us it starts when we’re in middle school or high school,

221
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this idea of what it’s gonna be like to be married and be adults and we dream and stuff and then as an adult,

222
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um single,

223
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you’re meeting friends are even married and you talk about,

224
00:12:50,190 –> 00:12:55,280
talk to your friends about their marriage is there’s a lot of expectations that can come just from friends saying,

225
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oh,

226
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this is how it ought to be,

227
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this is how it should be,

228
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or this is how my marriages and oh,

229
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it’s so wonderful or it’s so awful depending on their experience.

230
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Oh,

231
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sure.

232
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And just hearing even friends,

233
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aunts and uncles getting married or older siblings and you just hear a lot of things about that and and that’s going to have a big influence on,

234
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on what your expectations are going to be right or wrong for what your marriage is ultimately going to be,

235
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maybe better,

236
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maybe worse.

237
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Yeah,

238
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it’s tricky definitely.

239
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I think of times when I’ve been away for different schools or different environments,

240
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when I’ve been away from military and spending a lot of time together,

241
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we end up talking about our families.

242
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Sometimes someone will say something,

243
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they’ll be like,

244
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that is absolutely how it should be or this is what marriage is and you’re thinking where did that come from?

245
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If you’re not critical about the people you around,

246
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it’s really easy for me when I’m going away in a different environment.

247
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Okay,

248
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this is clearly different.

249
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But sometimes the people that you work with,

250
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you can start hearing these thoughts about how marriage should be and if you’re not critical and thinking about it,

251
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say,

252
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hey,

253
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wait a minute.

254
00:13:54,580 –> 00:13:57,970
Just because this group is all agreeing with that,

255
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they may not even all agree with.

256
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And certainly if your spouse isn’t there agreeing with it,

257
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then that expectation is unshared.

258
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Yes.

259
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And and I think that God gives us a lot of freedom in marriage to express him and reflect him to the world.

260
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We’ve talked before about just the concept of marriage can in some ways,

261
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really reflect the trinity because God is three and one and a couple is two people,

262
00:14:24,631 –> 00:14:33,711
but that one marriage unit these expressions of God are going to be very different and you can have a christian marriage a holy marriage,

263
00:14:33,721 –> 00:14:40,001
a thriving marriage in very different context with different things in place,

264
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but that honors God.

265
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It’s just important to have those fundamentals in place.

266
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You just have to know where those expectations coming from.

267
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And then one of my favorites too is of course media like television shows,

268
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You don’t want to base your expectations of marriage or singleness or really much of anything off of media and TV shows and movies that that’s just going to get you in trouble.

269
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Wait a minute.

270
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You’re telling me that every conflict can be resolved in 55 minutes with commercials shockingly not especially those legal dramas,

271
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right?

272
00:15:10,362 –> 00:15:10,792
It’s like,

273
00:15:10,792 –> 00:15:12,952
hey that that serious sex in the city,

274
00:15:12,962 –> 00:15:23,173
so amusing but you don’t want to live into that because they’ve got different ideas and they’ve got writers that just make everything all work out in the end and that’s not always so for life.

275
00:15:23,183 –> 00:15:24,793
Well they also get to do retakes.

276
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They can,

277
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they can,

278
00:15:25,613 –> 00:15:30,673
they can have that argument five or six times and whichever one comes out the best they do.

279
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We’ve seen this.

280
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I mean instagram,

281
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whatever different social media stuff.

282
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There’s so many ideas that will get from tv shows,

283
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movies,

284
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media and whatever and those can be unshared expectations as well.

285
00:15:43,813 –> 00:15:45,914
Even just in this little conversation we’re joking around about.

286
00:15:45,924 –> 00:15:47,534
I did not watch Gilmore Girls,

287
00:15:47,534 –> 00:15:50,404
that’s not something that I know you and Brenda really enjoyed watching it.

288
00:15:50,414 –> 00:15:53,774
So any expectation that could have developed out of watching something like that.

289
00:15:53,774 –> 00:15:57,074
It’s not going to be shared because I have no idea what you’re talking about.

290
00:15:57,084 –> 00:15:59,014
You said Rory’s friend was korean.

291
00:15:59,014 –> 00:16:03,444
I didn’t know that until you just told me that those are unshared expectations.

292
00:16:03,454 –> 00:16:04,294
Don’t worry babe.

293
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Because see I I won’t voice these things because we don’t we don’t want to bother you with that kind of deal.

294
00:16:09,814 –> 00:16:10,254
But yes,

295
00:16:10,254 –> 00:16:11,104
you’re absolutely right.

296
00:16:11,125 –> 00:16:12,015
You had talked about you know,

297
00:16:12,015 –> 00:16:20,215
being critical when you’re getting some of these influences just again from friends from from tv shows and movies and and things like that.

298
00:16:20,215 –> 00:16:27,915
And I think critical not that you’re trying to be out there and be down on on things that are out there.

299
00:16:27,915 –> 00:16:36,415
But just the concept of critical thinking which I think we’ve gotten as a culture away from um that it’s just kind of like well does that really match up?

300
00:16:36,415 –> 00:16:37,565
Does that really make sense?

301
00:16:37,565 –> 00:16:39,046
Just really thinking it through?

302
00:16:39,046 –> 00:16:40,680
Is that really how it should be?

303
00:16:40,690 –> 00:16:46,070
Because really what we should be comparing things to is what the scripture tell us and that’s a good point.

304
00:16:46,070 –> 00:16:48,870
We’ll get into that again in a little bit as well because that’s huge.

305
00:16:48,870 –> 00:16:49,200
But yeah,

306
00:16:49,210 –> 00:16:49,760
critical,

307
00:16:49,760 –> 00:16:58,300
not meaning all these all these opinions are bad or these expectations are bad but thinking through where does this come from and bouncing again,

308
00:16:58,300 –> 00:17:01,090
Taking every thought captive as paul tells us in romans.

309
00:17:01,090 –> 00:17:12,030
We gotta take every thought captive including our expectations in marriage and then perhaps the most dangerous or most pernicious one is these unreasonable expectations.

310
00:17:12,040 –> 00:17:21,910
I mean that can get really squirrelly if you expect something and it’s just not possible going out and changing the tire without a jacket and I’m making stuff up.

311
00:17:21,920 –> 00:17:22,670
But there’s,

312
00:17:22,680 –> 00:17:26,190
we have expectations that just aren’t reasonable.

313
00:17:26,190 –> 00:17:27,410
We can’t expect that.

314
00:17:27,420 –> 00:17:35,940
So this is one that you and I had to work through in the past few months as well was trying to figure out dinner because so often,

315
00:17:35,950 –> 00:17:37,910
especially with the covid pandemic,

316
00:17:37,910 –> 00:17:40,850
you’ve been doing a lot of your legal work from home.

317
00:17:40,920 –> 00:17:41,610
And so,

318
00:17:41,620 –> 00:17:43,510
so for me,

319
00:17:43,520 –> 00:17:46,550
my expectation unreasonable.

320
00:17:46,560 –> 00:17:47,040
Hey,

321
00:17:47,040 –> 00:17:47,780
you’re home,

322
00:17:47,780 –> 00:17:50,110
you’re available to do home stuff.

323
00:17:50,120 –> 00:17:52,580
And even it’s like okay for dinner.

324
00:17:52,590 –> 00:17:53,520
Your,

325
00:17:53,530 –> 00:17:54,800
when I say,

326
00:17:54,810 –> 00:17:56,210
since I’m cooking dinner,

327
00:17:56,220 –> 00:17:57,980
um often while you’re working,

328
00:17:57,990 –> 00:17:58,450
when I say,

329
00:17:58,450 –> 00:17:59,010
hey,

330
00:17:59,020 –> 00:17:59,800
oh,

331
00:17:59,810 –> 00:18:01,230
it’s such and such a time.

332
00:18:01,230 –> 00:18:01,970
It’s time for dinner.

333
00:18:01,970 –> 00:18:03,690
That’s not a reasonable expectation.

334
00:18:03,690 –> 00:18:04,390
We had to talk about say,

335
00:18:04,390 –> 00:18:04,780
hey,

336
00:18:05,290 –> 00:18:06,340
you’re going to come out to dinner.

337
00:18:06,340 –> 00:18:07,360
We’re gonna have dinner as a family.

338
00:18:07,360 –> 00:18:09,460
That’s an expectation that we’ve set from the,

339
00:18:09,470 –> 00:18:10,280
from the beginning.

340
00:18:10,290 –> 00:18:15,080
But I can’t just expect you to be in the middle of an email soon as I say,

341
00:18:15,080 –> 00:18:15,490
hey,

342
00:18:15,500 –> 00:18:16,560
dinner’s ready,

343
00:18:16,570 –> 00:18:17,410
you should be here.

344
00:18:17,410 –> 00:18:22,320
That’s an unreasonable expectation and I’m speaking a little more harshly than it came came out.

345
00:18:22,320 –> 00:18:23,190
But I was thinking like,

346
00:18:23,190 –> 00:18:25,480
hey jen what’s taking you so long.

347
00:18:25,480 –> 00:18:29,920
And so we had to have that conversation to give you a little bit more leeway to say,

348
00:18:29,920 –> 00:18:30,100
hey,

349
00:18:30,100 –> 00:18:32,120
dinner’s gonna be ready in such and such a time or hey,

350
00:18:32,120 –> 00:18:33,780
I’m calling the kids up to set the table.

351
00:18:33,780 –> 00:18:34,680
So you know,

352
00:18:34,680 –> 00:18:35,250
you’ve got,

353
00:18:35,390 –> 00:18:39,470
I’ve got two or three minutes to wrap up this last thing so that I can go have dinner with my family.

354
00:18:39,470 –> 00:18:39,590
Oh,

355
00:18:39,590 –> 00:18:39,970
certainly.

356
00:18:39,970 –> 00:18:40,700
And sometimes too,

357
00:18:40,700 –> 00:18:41,500
as you know,

358
00:18:41,500 –> 00:18:42,880
sometimes it’s something where it’s like goodness,

359
00:18:42,880 –> 00:18:48,580
I’m trying to comfort a husband or a wife whose spouse just passed away and they’re,

360
00:18:48,580 –> 00:18:54,620
they’re trying to talk things through with me for the estate and I need to be mindful of,

361
00:18:54,640 –> 00:18:54,860
you know,

362
00:18:54,860 –> 00:18:55,330
dinner,

363
00:18:55,330 –> 00:19:00,300
although that’s not going to be ready at exactly the same time every evening.

364
00:19:00,310 –> 00:19:03,540
Although we’re trying to kind of keep to a bit of that schedule,

365
00:19:03,540 –> 00:19:06,380
but just having the understanding and the compassion of,

366
00:19:06,380 –> 00:19:06,590
you know,

367
00:19:06,590 –> 00:19:09,480
jen might need to take a little bit of extra time with this uh,

368
00:19:09,490 –> 00:19:12,980
this individual because they’ve just experienced the death of a spouse.

369
00:19:12,990 –> 00:19:13,850
Absolutely.

370
00:19:14,040 –> 00:19:21,730
And another thing that I think also unreasonable expectations that I think a lot of couples fall into making their spouse an idol,

371
00:19:21,740 –> 00:19:24,930
trying to get your identity,

372
00:19:24,940 –> 00:19:26,420
your purpose,

373
00:19:26,430 –> 00:19:29,720
your security from your spouse rather than from God.

374
00:19:29,730 –> 00:19:31,700
And that’s a big problem because of course there’s,

375
00:19:31,710 –> 00:19:36,980
there’s always going to be things that only God can fill and only be to us and,

376
00:19:36,980 –> 00:19:41,020
and of course you don’t want to do something that would make your spouse feel insecure,

377
00:19:41,020 –> 00:19:45,790
but your spouse can’t be the sole source of your security because that should be in God,

378
00:19:45,800 –> 00:19:48,600
God that should be your your source of provisions.

379
00:19:48,610 –> 00:19:54,840
But obviously we’re working to earn a living to my core identity is who I am in christ.

380
00:19:54,850 –> 00:19:56,840
An aspect of that is being your husband,

381
00:19:56,840 –> 00:19:58,620
which I enjoy quite a lot by the way.

382
00:19:58,630 –> 00:19:59,710
Likewise thank you.

383
00:19:59,720 –> 00:20:03,780
But my core identity is in christ and I’ve got to look to God for that.

384
00:20:03,790 –> 00:20:05,200
You can’t be God,

385
00:20:05,200 –> 00:20:07,200
you are an amazing awesome lawyer.

386
00:20:07,200 –> 00:20:10,590
You’re a wonderful mom and best wife ever.

387
00:20:11,130 –> 00:20:13,830
But you really are really bad at being God.

388
00:20:13,830 –> 00:20:14,050
Yeah.

389
00:20:14,050 –> 00:20:17,300
I’m a lousy jesus and always will be so can’t look,

390
00:20:17,310 –> 00:20:18,380
I can’t look to me for that,

391
00:20:18,380 –> 00:20:18,830
my friend,

392
00:20:18,840 –> 00:20:20,050
unfortunately a lot of us,

393
00:20:20,050 –> 00:20:26,630
especially the way romance and love is betrayed in stories and books and movies and things like that.

394
00:20:26,640 –> 00:20:39,410
People find this identity and this this myth of the soul mate and all these things that their idea identity comes from the relationships that they’re in and that’s that’s idolatry or status from a relationship.

395
00:20:39,420 –> 00:20:44,380
It’s just I think that some of that can be what are the things that can be idols,

396
00:20:44,380 –> 00:20:45,230
What do they,

397
00:20:45,240 –> 00:20:49,290
they falsely seem to say that they’d be able to provide,

398
00:20:49,290 –> 00:20:50,880
but that they can never do it.

399
00:20:50,890 –> 00:20:51,650
Exactly.

400
00:20:51,650 –> 00:20:51,960
Exactly.

401
00:20:51,970 –> 00:20:55,230
So how do we deal with these un expectations?

402
00:20:55,470 –> 00:20:55,980
You know,

403
00:20:55,990 –> 00:21:07,070
I think that the way that that works out is initially you’d have to identify what is that expectation because I know that I’ve had some things pop up where it’s like,

404
00:21:07,070 –> 00:21:07,390
gosh,

405
00:21:07,390 –> 00:21:11,560
I’m I’m upset about this and I’m not exactly sure why.

406
00:21:11,560 –> 00:21:14,960
So I’ve got to kind of put my finger on it and kind of figure out,

407
00:21:14,970 –> 00:21:15,380
you know,

408
00:21:15,380 –> 00:21:16,280
what triggered this,

409
00:21:16,280 –> 00:21:21,400
what got me upset and then I wouldn’t be storming over to you and saying,

410
00:21:21,410 –> 00:21:22,900
oh my goodness brian,

411
00:21:22,910 –> 00:21:23,410
you know,

412
00:21:23,410 –> 00:21:25,040
you really messed this up.

413
00:21:25,040 –> 00:21:29,770
I I’ve got to kind of take a step back and say goodness what upset me and then kind of share with you,

414
00:21:29,780 –> 00:21:30,310
hey,

415
00:21:30,310 –> 00:21:32,490
this really up upset me and this is problematic,

416
00:21:32,500 –> 00:21:36,530
but then you shouldn’t be snapping back at me that I shouldn’t be upset,

417
00:21:36,540 –> 00:21:44,990
You should be listening at that point in time to to just figure out at that point in time what’s converging is my expectations that weren’t met.

418
00:21:45,000 –> 00:21:51,400
And then we’re trying to talk about it and you might then have some expectations that were unmet expectations.

419
00:21:51,400 –> 00:21:52,680
I like to think of expectations,

420
00:21:52,680 –> 00:21:53,340
like your big toe,

421
00:21:53,340 –> 00:21:54,870
now go with me on this all right,

422
00:21:54,880 –> 00:21:56,890
so like your big toe,

423
00:21:57,140 –> 00:21:58,840
you never really think about your big toe,

424
00:21:58,840 –> 00:21:59,540
it’s just there,

425
00:21:59,540 –> 00:22:04,120
It does its job and it’s really good at doing its job until you stub your big toe,

426
00:22:04,130 –> 00:22:07,910
then the only thing you can think about is your big toe because it hurts,

427
00:22:08,170 –> 00:22:08,580
you know,

428
00:22:08,580 –> 00:22:10,090
and it no longer does the job.

429
00:22:10,100 –> 00:22:10,810
So expectations,

430
00:22:10,810 –> 00:22:12,490
I mean I don’t think about them,

431
00:22:12,490 –> 00:22:18,140
they’re just there until it gets stepped on and then all of a sudden that hurts a lot.

432
00:22:18,150 –> 00:22:21,250
And so we got absolutely got to identify the expectation.

433
00:22:21,260 –> 00:22:21,920
Um,

434
00:22:21,930 –> 00:22:26,370
but I would propose that before we even talk to each other about it,

435
00:22:26,380 –> 00:22:28,520
we should figure out why it’s been unmet.

436
00:22:28,530 –> 00:22:29,300
Okay.

437
00:22:29,300 –> 00:22:33,030
So we would then be kind of figuring out why it was unmet,

438
00:22:33,030 –> 00:22:34,280
what didn’t happen?

439
00:22:34,280 –> 00:22:34,730
Right.

440
00:22:34,740 –> 00:22:35,430
Exactly.

441
00:22:35,430 –> 00:22:35,930
I mean,

442
00:22:35,940 –> 00:22:40,820
is this an invoiced unshared or unreasonable expectation?

443
00:22:40,820 –> 00:22:47,710
I think that’s important because if it’s just something that this could be something that I know we,

444
00:22:47,710 –> 00:22:50,690
we share because we’ve talked about things before.

445
00:22:50,700 –> 00:22:56,380
So I know this value of making sure that something is happening in the home,

446
00:22:56,390 –> 00:22:58,400
we share the value on this,

447
00:22:58,410 –> 00:23:00,580
but we didn’t talk about who was going to do this,

448
00:23:00,590 –> 00:23:02,340
this has happened before,

449
00:23:02,340 –> 00:23:02,530
right?

450
00:23:02,530 –> 00:23:02,690
Like,

451
00:23:02,690 –> 00:23:02,920
okay,

452
00:23:02,920 –> 00:23:04,100
who’s going to pick up the kids,

453
00:23:04,100 –> 00:23:04,830
who’s gonna,

454
00:23:04,840 –> 00:23:05,330
you know,

455
00:23:05,340 –> 00:23:07,110
if I thought you were,

456
00:23:07,110 –> 00:23:07,320
No,

457
00:23:07,320 –> 00:23:08,180
I thought you were,

458
00:23:08,190 –> 00:23:13,110
it wasn’t that it was an unshared expectation that things should be done,

459
00:23:13,110 –> 00:23:15,940
but it was unavoidable and that we didn’t know and said,

460
00:23:15,940 –> 00:23:16,250
hey,

461
00:23:16,260 –> 00:23:17,260
I got this or hey,

462
00:23:17,260 –> 00:23:18,220
can you take care of it.

463
00:23:18,230 –> 00:23:22,750
So before we can even really go to each other and figure and discuss,

464
00:23:22,760 –> 00:23:23,320
um,

465
00:23:23,330 –> 00:23:27,690
the expectation that wasn’t that we got to know why because it may be,

466
00:23:27,700 –> 00:23:45,240
I’ve got to come to you and apologize to you for being frustrated at you because you didn’t do what I didn’t tell you that I wanted you to do and it just seems like that spouse would have just worked themselves into a tip either just for and the other spouse would have just had no clue.

467
00:23:45,240 –> 00:23:50,430
No idea that there was any kind of an issue at all just because they didn’t know,

468
00:23:50,430 –> 00:23:53,230
they didn’t know what they didn’t know exactly exactly.

469
00:23:53,230 –> 00:23:58,910
And so I think once you’ve identified the expectation determined why it was unmet,

470
00:23:58,920 –> 00:24:03,600
then that’s when we discussed the expectation with you and this is how we do it all the time between us,

471
00:24:03,600 –> 00:24:03,870
right?

472
00:24:03,870 –> 00:24:04,200
It’s like,

473
00:24:04,200 –> 00:24:04,720
okay,

474
00:24:05,190 –> 00:24:08,710
now we’ve got to discuss this because if we don’t discuss it,

475
00:24:08,720 –> 00:24:14,270
then we’re just setting ourselves up to be hurt or frustrated or angry all over again.

476
00:24:14,830 –> 00:24:15,680
And so yeah,

477
00:24:15,690 –> 00:24:16,710
so identify it,

478
00:24:16,720 –> 00:24:24,080
determine why it was unmet and then discuss the expectation if you didn’t get a chance to listen to our first podcast on conflict resolution,

479
00:24:24,080 –> 00:24:33,910
take a listen to that because we talk about how to have these conversations because oftentimes these are going to be conflict and conflict when handled in a healthy way is very good.

480
00:24:34,300 –> 00:24:39,200
And so we have to discuss these and then together decide how we’ll move forward.

481
00:24:39,210 –> 00:24:44,240
I think that that’s an important thing and I what’s unfortunate I had heard from a client at one juncture.

482
00:24:44,250 –> 00:24:44,920
Well,

483
00:24:44,930 –> 00:24:45,410
you know,

484
00:24:45,410 –> 00:24:47,400
I just don’t have any expectations.

485
00:24:47,400 –> 00:24:48,730
So I won’t be disappointed,

486
00:24:48,730 –> 00:24:53,880
But even then she’s going to have some expectations nevertheless,

487
00:24:53,890 –> 00:24:57,730
um even if she’s kind of setting the bar low there.

488
00:24:57,730 –> 00:25:10,060
So um dealing with these un expectation is is a very important thing to do so that you can make sure that this doesn’t become a problem for your marriage.

489
00:25:10,070 –> 00:25:23,770
Something that brian and I looked at when we were writing our book was that passage from Song of Solomon that talks about catch the little foxes who are ruining the vineyard back in Biblical times.

490
00:25:23,780 –> 00:25:39,440
Certainly the Israelite people were viewing them as pests and it’s going to be a lot easier to get this little baby pest out of there versus they grow into these full blown huge animal foxes to to weed those out.

491
00:25:39,450 –> 00:25:41,040
Deal with the problems early.

492
00:25:41,040 –> 00:25:41,750
That’s huge.

493
00:25:41,750 –> 00:25:42,240
And that’s I mean,

494
00:25:42,240 –> 00:25:45,230
that’s why I put that in the forward of the book because it gets,

495
00:25:45,240 –> 00:25:46,010
it gets dicey.

496
00:25:46,010 –> 00:25:48,510
Those things those little foxes eat and eat meat,

497
00:25:48,520 –> 00:25:50,290
they get big and this idea of,

498
00:25:50,290 –> 00:25:50,440
oh,

499
00:25:50,440 –> 00:25:52,150
I just have no expectations.

500
00:25:52,160 –> 00:25:54,300
Life doesn’t work that way.

501
00:25:54,360 –> 00:25:54,750
Truth.

502
00:25:54,760 –> 00:25:56,370
I think that’s very true.

503
00:25:56,370 –> 00:26:00,270
So with the the the un expectations that you have,

504
00:26:00,280 –> 00:26:00,490
you know,

505
00:26:00,490 –> 00:26:00,770
what are,

506
00:26:00,770 –> 00:26:01,640
what are they?

507
00:26:01,650 –> 00:26:03,590
How does that work for you?

508
00:26:03,600 –> 00:26:20,160
And then realized to the expectations are often going to be normal and healthy and your unmet expectations are very often going to be those that are un voiced because they’re not communicated their unshared because our presumed norms are going to be different.

509
00:26:20,160 –> 00:26:34,080
They come out of sometimes they’re going to be very unreasonable to but it’s important to to deal with those un expectations and and determine how you’re going to go forward and go ahead and identify that expectation.

510
00:26:34,090 –> 00:26:36,230
Figure out why it was unmet.

511
00:26:36,240 –> 00:26:47,740
Then discuss that expectation with your spouse and then determine how you’re going to move forward and in handling that issue and and hopefully be able to minimize that kind of conflict on a going forward basis.

512
00:26:48,510 –> 00:26:51,520
We have another opportunity for you to help your marriage thrive.

513
00:26:51,530 –> 00:26:56,450
We are hosting a special intensive marriage retreat at the beautiful richard bush renewal center in michigan.

514
00:26:56,490 –> 00:27:02,740
This is an opportunity for us to spend time with you personally developing the skills that will help your marriage thrive.

515
00:27:02,750 –> 00:27:05,920
We’ll talk about enhancing communication skills,

516
00:27:05,930 –> 00:27:08,800
conflict resolution and building intimacy in your marriage.

517
00:27:08,960 –> 00:27:13,160
As an added bonus podcast listeners will receive a 10% discount.

518
00:27:13,300 –> 00:27:16,490
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519
00:27:16,490 –> 00:27:19,540
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520
00:27:19,540 –> 00:27:21,960
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521
00:27:21,970 –> 00:27:24,200
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522
00:27:24,200 –> 00:27:25,640
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Filed Under: Uncategorized

How Much Do We Have to Agree?

August 10, 2022 by Bryon Harvey

A few weeks ago in a conversation with a friend, the topic of Roe v. Wade came up. As we talked about the US Supreme Court’s decision, he asked me if I was going to address it here. I told him no. I didn’t see how this particular decision was relevant to building a thriving marriage.

Yes, I know that this is a huge cultural shift in the United States. I know that this affects thousands of people as they wrestle with decisions before them and in their past. I know that the decision is significant, but I didn’t see it as specifically relevant to what we do here.

My friend pointed out to me that there is something about this decision that should probably be addressed here.

What if you and your spouse disagree about the Supreme Court’s decision? What if you disagree about other significant issues? How do you have a thriving marriage when you disagree on things that one or both of you think are important.

These emotionally charged issues can be significant struggles in a marriage. In some cases such disagreements cause couples to question the health of their marriage.  I’ve even heard of couples considering divorce because they felt they could not live with someone who disagrees on such an important issue.

So what should you do when you find yourselves disagreeing on issues that you feel are important? How do you manage these intense emotional conflicts?

  1. Remember your marriage is more important than whatever the issue is that you are facing. 

This does not mean that the issue you are facing is unimportant. It means that you have to correctly prioritize the issue and your marriage. In the end, your marriage is a greater priority than this argument. Even arguments over doctrine carry a lower priority than your marriage. In 1 Corinthians 7:12-14, Paul tells believing men and women not to divorce their unbelieving spouses. Our commitment before God to our spouses is one of the highest commitments we have ever made. We must maintain it as a priority.

  1. It is not your job to change your spouse’s mind.

We often say that marriage is about holiness not happiness. Time and time again we emphasize that your spouse is there to make you more holy. It is easy to think in these cases that our role is to convince our spouse of our side because our position is clearly the godly one. We even have Scripture to back up our position. What happens when your spouse is equally convinced that their position is the godly one and they have Scripture to back it up? This quickly becomes a me against you proposition rather than a Team Marriage approach. Which one do you think builds unity in a thriving marriage?

Here’s the thing. Holiness isn’t what you think. It’s what you do. No, I’m not saying you earn salvation by what you do. Salvation was earned for you by Jesus and what he did on the cross. The only thing you can do is put your faith in Him. Once you have received that salvation, though, you grow in holiness, not in doctrinal correctness, but in living a godly life. God made you holy through the washing of Jesus’ shed blood. You grow in that holiness by how you live in light of that reality. In these cases of intense disagreement, you help each other grow in holiness not by convincing your spouse of your side, but by loving each other through the disagreement.

  1. Never stop loving.

The rulers, powers, and spiritual forces of darkness want to destroy your marriage (Eph 6:12, John 10:10). They want to undo the work that God is doing in and through you. They will use these conflicts to attempt to put a wedge between you and create distrust in your marriage. But, the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world and he has come to give you life to the fullest (1 John 4:4, John 10:10). The Holy Spirit can use this same conflict to teach you how to love each other when you disagree. As you learn this deeper love it will bring you closer together and build greater oneness in your marriage. This love will be a testimony to the world of the power of God. The world does not understand how to live together in peace and disagreement. The impulse to separate and form different communities based on thoughts and opinions is of the devil. The power of God brings differences together and says His love and power is greater than all.

In your marriage there will be conflict. You will disagree. In the midst of this conflict you will strengthen your marriage if you prioritize your marriage, do not demand that your spouse change their mind, and never stop loving them.

Filed Under: Blog Tagged With: argue, bible, christian, conflict, marriage, politics

Disagreeing About the Big Things

July 20, 2022 by Bryon Harvey

Last week in a conversation with a friend, the topic of Roe v. Wade came up. As we talked about the US Supreme Court’s decision, he asked me if I was going to address it here. I told him no. I didn’t see how this particular decision was relevant to building a thriving marriage.

Yes, I know that this is a huge cultural shift in the United States. I know that this affects thousands of people as they wrestle with decisions before them and in their past. I know that the decision is significant, but I didn’t see it as specifically relevant to what we do here.

My friend pointed out to me that there is something about this decision that should probably be addressed here.

What if you and your spouse disagree about the Supreme Court’s decision? What if you disagree about other significant issues? How do you have a thriving marriage when you disagree on things that one or both of you think are important.

These emotionally charged issues can be significant struggles in a marriage. In some cases such disagreements cause couples to question the health of their marriage.  I’ve even heard of couples considering divorce because they felt they could not live with someone who disagrees on such an important issue.

So what should you do when you find yourselves disagreeing on issues that you feel are important? How do you manage these intense emotional conflicts?

  1. Remember your marriage is more important than whatever the issue is that you are facing. 

This does not mean that the issue you are facing is unimportant. It means that you have to correctly prioritize the issue and your marriage. In the end, your marriage is a greater priority than this argument. Even arguments over doctrine carry a lower priority than your marriage. In 1 Corinthians 7:12-14, Paul tells believing men and women not to divorce their unbelieving spouses. Our commitment before God to our spouses is one of the highest commitments we have ever made. We must maintain it as a priority.

  1. It is not your job to change your spouse’s mind.

We often say that marriage is about holiness not happiness. Time and time again we emphasize that your spouse is there to make you more holy. It is easy to think in these cases that our role is to convince our spouse of our side because our position is clearly the godly one. We even have Scripture to back up our position. What happens when your spouse is equally convinced that their position is the godly one and they have Scripture to back it up? This quickly becomes a me against you proposition rather than a Team Marriage approach. Which one do you think builds unity in a thriving marriage?

Here’s the thing. Holiness isn’t what you think. It’s what you do. No, I’m not saying you earn salvation by what you do. Salvation was earned for you by Jesus and what he did on the cross. The only thing you can do is put your faith in Him. Once you have received that salvation, though, you grow in holiness, not in doctrinal correctness, but in living a godly life. God made you holy through the washing of Jesus’ shed blood. You grow in that holiness by how you live in light of that reality. In these cases of intense disagreement, you help each other grow in holiness not by convincing your spouse of your side, but by loving each other through the disagreement.

  1. Never stop loving.

The rulers, powers, and spiritual forces of darkness want to destroy your marriage (Eph 6:12, John 10:10). They want to undo the work that God is doing in and through you. They will use these conflicts to attempt to put a wedge between you and create distrust in your marriage. But, the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world and he has come to give you life to the fullest (1 John 4:4, John 10:10). The Holy Spirit can use this same conflict to teach you how to love each other when you disagree. As you learn this deeper love it will bring you closer together and build greater oneness in your marriage. This love will be a testimony to the world of the power of God. The world does not understand how to live together in peace and disagreement. The impulse to separate and form different communities based on thoughts and opinions is of the devil. The power of God brings differences together and says His love and power is greater than all.

In your marriage there will be conflict. You will disagree. In the midst of this conflict you will strengthen your marriage if you prioritize your marriage, do not demand that your spouse change their mind, and never stop loving them.

Filed Under: Uncategorized Tagged With: argue, christian, conflict, marriage, theology

Episode 3 Transcript: Forgiveness is What You Do not What You Feel

May 27, 2022 by Bryon Harvey

And so that’s the same thing with forgiveness,
right?
So many times talk about people,
it’s like,
well,
I just can’t forgive them,
and they’re speaking out of their emotions,
or So,
I don’t know if I’ve forgiven them or not,
and then they’re talking to us.
It’s like,
I don’t know if you’re forgiven or not.
Mhm.
You may be one choice away from the driving bear.
Welcome to the operation of driving here.
Yes.
Too quiet work.
Yeah,
Yeah.
Well,
everyone thanks again for being here for the operation,
thriving marriage podcast.
Get to be in the studio with my wonderful wife,
jen and our producer Todd out there.
How’s it going,
sweetheart?
Thanks babe.
Doing fantastic.
Got uh some interesting things to,
kind of,
wade into today.
It gives you we’re gonna be talking about the topic of forgiveness.
Yeah,
so,
forgiveness.
That’s a that’s a fun one.
It’s it’s but it’s almost kinda cliche,
isn’t it?
We always talk about forgiveness in church and obviously forgiveness is huge part of our faith.
It’s I mean,
how we are reconciled to God.
Go on and on.
We could do an entire podcast series.
I mean,
people could do a whole,
I mean,
series of series of podcasts on forgiveness and what it means,
but I don’t want to say it’s talked about too much.
So,
I don’t think you can talk too much about it,
but at the same time,
you hear about all the time in church,
Right?
It’s just what more could there possibly be to say about forgiveness that we haven’t heard.
I think there’s a lot to say,
because I think there’s a lot of things in forgiveness that we’re hearing in churches where it’s just presumed,
but it doesn’t really flesh out in a lot of times,
the congregation doesn’t get the tools and the equipping about how to do it or what do you do if you feel like you’re failing or it’s like,
oh my goodness,
I’ve tried to forgive this person so much,
so many times for this one particular incident and I’m still struggling with that.
I just want folks to know they’re not alone in that and we really want to make sure that we’re giving you some more practical tools to be able to get you to forgive.
And if you feel like you’re struggling and forgiveness,
you’re certainly not alone and we can see what we can do to direct you through that.
That’s a good point.
You know,
kind of we talk about love and it’s becoming more popular church,
that love isn’t just a feeling its actions and inside note,
I’m so grateful for that because,
you know,
I don’t always have the warm and fuzzies about people,
especially me,
but oh,
come on now,
that’s my honey,
I love my honey.
But it’s about it really being a verb and being in action because God certainly commands us to love.
But you can’t command somebody to have a warm and fuzzy feeling on the spot,
but you can command the actions to be loving towards a person.
And then I think the feelings a lot of times follow,
even if they’re not super warm and fuzzy,
at least you’re more positively predisposed.
And that’s so true.
I mean,
it’s a command.
And so that’s the same thing with forgiveness,
right?
So many times talk about people,
it’s like,
well,
I just can’t forgive them and their speaking out of their emotions or just I don’t know if I’ve forgiven them or not and then they’re talking to us.
It’s like,
I don’t know if you’re forgiven or not because I don’t know what’s in your head and your heart.
That’s one of things that when we get into this a little bit later today,
forgiveness is commanded.
Forgiveness is an action.
Forgiveness is what you do not what you feel.
That’s a huge piece of it because you don’t always have to feel for giving me the emotions follow action if you want to feel something,
start acting like it and it’s not it’s not fake it till you make it.
Because that’s that’s just ridiculous.
But understanding that what you think about and what you do and how you process things affect how you feel about it.
It’s what you believe.
It starts in your head,
start on what you think about what you can control and then the emotions and stuff kind of follow along there.
It just pivots really on the actions and I think that that’s the big thing there.
And a lot of times those emotions can just go ahead and follow.
So when I mess something up when I sin,
I missed the mark.
I screwed something up.
What do you do when you want to forgive me?
That’s a huge question.
What I try to do.
It’s like,
okay,
first of all,
I need to unplug because something’s happened where I’m hurt,
right?
It’s like you said something,
done something in it because there would be nothing to forgive.
Talk about a little bit more about what unplug means though.
Okay,
yeah.
So just take a moment to myself,
especially me being an introvert.
I need some time to myself to be able to process things and so unplug.
Take a moment to get out of the situation.
And then the big thing for me is two fold one.
We’ll talk about the definition of forgiveness and a little bit,
but it’s making that choice of you don’t have to pay me back for something.
You don’t owe me anything.
But then also,
it’s the team marriage idea.
It’s remembering the goodwill presuming.
Okay,
whatever jen just did.
She did not intend to hurt me.
You didn’t intend to hurt my feelings.
You didn’t intend for this for me to be feeling pain or feeling anxiety or anything.
Well,
sure.
I mean,
I’m not the type to try to do that on purpose certainly.
And you know,
we should never be out to punish our spouses or give them a hard time or treat them as a combatant.
They’re supposed to be somebody on your team,
That team marriage.
And so for me,
when I,
when I need to take the action to forgive,
I’m releasing the debt as it were.
I’m choosing that.
You don’t you don’t owe me an apology.
You don’t you don’t have to make up for anything.
I’m making that choice.
I’m not going to force something out of that.
The first step is always for me remembering team marriage and presuming goodwill in you.
It’s like,
okay,
brian that hurt.
So I feel that pain.
I feel that emotional experience,
whatever it is,
that was horrible that I didn’t like that.
Why did jen do it?
I don’t know why she did it,
but I know it wasn’t intended to hurt me.
And then from there,
I can move on to restore.
And I think in marriage,
restoration is very important.
We’ll talk about that a little bit more later.
But then it’s one of those I come to you and say,
hey,
I know you didn’t mean to hurt my feelings.
I know you didn’t mean this to happen,
but it did.
And here’s how I felt.
And I want you to know,
I mean we’re good and but I reach out and restore and we have a conversation about that and you always are repentant because that’s just who we are.
That’s important in marriage.
But I never wait for your repentance before I forgive,
it’s always forgiveness is the first step.
And oh by the way,
jesus died for all of us before we repented and jesus tells us to pray forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Forgiveness doesn’t start with the other person’s repentance.
Forgiveness always starts with the individual doing forgiving.
It started with God for giving us when I want to forgive you.
That’s the process.
Now,
you’ve had the dubious pleasure.
Pleasure is the wrong word,
the dubious honor perhaps of representing people in divorce.
You’ve dealt with divorces and divorce law is never a fun happy process.
Tell me about a marriage that you’ve seen,
where there was no forgiveness and what did that look like?
Right,
I think you’re spot on for asking that just because that is going to end in divorce,
because in a lot of ways I feel like in a marriage relationship,
forgiveness just has to be this abundant,
never ending flowing river jesus of course,
talks about how many times are you to forgive?
And the Apostle Peter Uh decides to say,
Hey,
I’m going to kind of show off and be a hotshot is it’s the seven times and then you hear that Jesus is coming back saying 70 times seven,
certainly not to quantify the amount of times,
but to say no,
this is just excessive and this is just so abundant.
And what I like about saying that forgiveness should be like this huge stream of running water,
it should always be available,
it should always be fresh,
it should always be flowing from us as those rivers of water that jesus talked about us would would be flowing these rivers of life and forgiveness I think is a key characteristic of this and also a key action to always be taking in that.
But certainly marriages where there is no forgiveness,
If we continue the analogy,
it’s gonna dry up,
it’s going to be rough,
it’s going to end and almost predictably there’s going to be a divorce.
Yeah,
I think for us and those of us of the christian faith,
I mean that’s part of what our identity in christ is required to be right,
Not that okay,
we’ve got to be perfect at it.
I do think that God really meant it when he said,
be holy as I am holy.
I do think that jesus said,
if you love me,
you’ll obey my commands and obviously there’s room for mistake,
an error.
But our identity should be that of forgiving people,
particularly in marriage because the relationship is so close and you’re not going to be able to maintain that in any healthy manner without actually talking through it.
That’s certainly the case there.
So what are the hardest things to forgive?
Oh my goodness,
for me personally,
and this is just kind of a personality thing.
It’s very disappointing to me when because I have a very strong sense of responsibility if people say they’re going to do something,
especially if somebody is relying on,
especially if I’m relying on it and they don’t follow through.
That’s something that can be just really difficult.
I think from the onset for me to forgive,
but I have learned to let that go because I don’t want that to have a negative impact on me.
I don’t want that to have a negative impact on the relationship and certainly don’t want to damage any relationship that I have with God,
want to follow his commands.
That’s huge.
And I think that’s important.
We talk a lot about when we’re talking to couples that to be a good husband to be a good wife,
to be,
to be a good christian husband,
to be a good christian wife at the end of its being a good christian,
it’s following jesus and jesus said in john the world will know where his disciples by our love for one another.
And that’s one of the beautiful things about marriage because people can see us and they can see us forgiving each other.
And that’s one of the things that part of our mission is to represent jesus to the world.
This idea of forgiveness is so hard for people if they’ve never experienced it and they’ve never really seen it,
we have the privilege being married where we can show people a little bit of what God is like and how we love each other and how we forgive each other.
That’s so important to growing in our holiness in living in his kingdom and being part of bringing his kingdom on earth.
At one point,
jesus going to return and his kingdom is going to be here with him.
But now we’re living our lives preparing for that future life and showing other people how they get that opportunity.
But to do that,
to be able to live that and to represent that to the world,
represent God’s forgiveness,
where we kind of need to know what that is.
So how do you define forgiveness?
What is forgiveness mean?
I think a lot of it has to do with treating the person as though that offense hadn’t occurred.
And of course,
sometimes things need to be reorganized or relegated differently.
So certainly have to put out there immediately.
If there’s been some sort of abuse or the law has been broken,
some sort of a significant breach of trust.
If there’s some adultery,
there’s some addiction that has happened,
Some sort of abuse that’s happened.
Sometimes you have to restructure how you’re relating with the person.
But maybe boundaries right?
Like may have boundaries in place,
but boundaries aren’t penal boundaries aren’t punishments,
boundaries are to protect me from what could happen again.
That’s exactly it.
And of course,
sometimes there is going to be legal consequences to somebody’s actions.
Where sometimes the best thing to do is to press charges in domestic violence situations because the law has to get involved in that to keep people safe and and stop that perpetrator from acting out,
not just against the person who he or she hurt,
but also potentially to lash out on other people in that kind of violence.
So if if that is something that is you and you’re facing a domestic violence,
there are a lot of great organizations that are out there and you can google domestic violence hotlines to certainly make sure that you’re safe and get yourself some help in that realm and never any shame in that.
But it is important for you to forgive the perpetrator.
There another thing is like forgiveness.
This is an example from parenting and you can’t parent your spouse.
So don’t try but the idea of being able to forgive and they’re still being consequences.
We do this all the time with Children.
The child has done a bad act.
They’ve done something and there are consequences for their actions in our household.
It’s usually taking away some form of technology.
It’s like,
okay,
I have to do this.
But as your parent,
I would be a bad parent and I’d be lying to you if I didn’t.
Like I told you,
if you continue to do this,
you will lose privilege in something and then if I don’t do that,
I’ve lied to you.
But that doesn’t mean that our relationship I’m holding like,
okay,
you are perpetually a person that does this in a marriage.
What does that look like?
Abuse and adultery and things like that.
Those are huge.
But what about just like every day forgiveness?
What does that look like?
What’s an example that you could give on how someone would know,
okay,
that forgiveness has happened?
I think a lot of it is reassuring the spouse that the relationship is no longer broken,
that it’s mended or that it’s in process of being mended by talking things through and also adjusting and making some some changes to behavior.
So,
I think for some things,
sometimes the spouse will deal with some natural consequences of things.
And what I mean by that if it’s all right,
we have to be at a certain event at a certain time.
If your spouse doesn’t get home by a certain time and that would make you late to the event.
Sometimes you’ve just got to go to the event.
Sometimes you can be late to events.
Sometimes you can’t but sometimes your spouse might have to miss out.
And that’s just more of a natural consequence of their behavior.
But I think that something’s when it has to do with forgiveness or showing that kind of restoration as a lot of it is we’re hoping that the spouse who is the offender repents,
apologizes and is showing that they’re ready to restore the relationship as well.
And forgiveness needs to happen though even before that,
right?
I think for us,
how I know when forgiveness happen,
and this is just in the marriage situation,
I want to be very clear.
There’s a lot of situations that you deal with with forgiveness that are not the same.
Because sometimes there’s a situation where you can’t have complete restoration.
The offender has passed away.
But in marriage there has to be restoration.
You have to go all the way through.
And so for us,
I know that we’ve gone to that point when there’s physical affection and I don’t mean sex.
I mean,
we can hug each other.
We can hold each other’s hands.
We can kiss each other.
I mean,
we we come we come back together physically after there’s been a conflict and there’s been forgiveness.
And so for us,
I think that’s how,
at least for me,
that’s how I know,
okay,
we’ve gone through the whole cycle because I know we’re physically close again and showing physical affection.
That makes sense.
Sure.
There’s a lot of different things that can affect affect our marriage if there is no forgiveness.
Yeah.
And I think that that’s the big thing,
because we’re certainly talking about forgiveness being so important between the husband and wife if you’re letting unforgiveness linger in other relationships.
If that’s with your parents,
your Children.
If you can’t forgive yourself for something if there’s a co worker,
a friend,
someone that you’re volunteering with,
possibly a member of your church or community that can really spill over into your marriage and your family because you have that unforgiveness issue.
So it’s always important to do that.
I know a pastor where he had just been praying saying I believe that I’ve forgiven people.
I don’t believe I have anything against anyone.
And what God brought to his mind,
I was a kid that had bullied him in school when he was in elementary school and the vision that God gave him was this kid who was probably 10 or 12 years old in just a little boat.
And this pastor as an adult was basically pushing him off the shore line and letting him go as that just this physical manifestation of I’m letting this grudge go.
I’m letting this unforgiveness go and I am extending forgiveness to this individual and I like that.
I think that’s that’s important letting it go.
And it’s not Elsa let it go.
Let it go and build an ice tower and get away from everyone.
We’re not singing on this podcast brand.
We could,
we could,
I can’t subscribe.
You’re gonna get us in trouble here.
So,
but it is letting go of the offense and not holding that when when you hold a grudge,
that language is really good because you’re holding onto something and so let releasing that person from owing you a debt.
But how do when we’re when there’s someone that you haven’t forgiven?
Okay,
we talked about the spouse and we talked in the past couple of podcasts if you haven’t had a chance to listen to those earlier podcasts.
We did,
we talked about and resolving conflict and managing anger.
And that’s this is just kind of goes along with that when you do those well,
the things you have to do is forgive.
But what about those other relationships?
How does unforgiveness from dealing with parents?
How can that?
It seems to me like,
well,
whatever that that’s my relationship with my dad,
that’s my relation with my mom.
What does that have to do with my relationship with you?
How does unforgiveness like leech into our relationship if I haven’t forgiven my dad for something?
And I think that’s the hard thing because we as humans can’t completely compartmentalize.
Of course,
there’s kind of a stereotype where for women,
it’s this one big thing of their lives and their relationships,
but men can compartmentalize and when it comes to forgiveness,
that is just not how it can be because holding that kind of grudge against that person and holding them in unforgiveness,
it does spill over to everything because it is that lack of shalom in people’s lives unpack that shalom in case people aren’t familiar with.
So that’s a hebrew word and we normally hear this piece,
but it’s more than that,
isn’t it?
It extends more to being really the wholeness of the experience of God and experiencing his life in the most abundance and I know you’ve done the MD of course is brian,
so you can,
I think,
dig into this even more than I can.
Yeah,
it’s that absolute connection and being completely restored.
So shalom isn’t just the absence of strife,
it is the presence of fullness and wholeness and peace.
A lot of people think of peace is just there’s no conflict.
Well from a military perspective,
we can have a peace treaty saying,
okay,
conflict has ended.
We’re not going to blow each other up anymore,
but shalom is that restoration,
that wholeness.
When there’s unforgiveness in relationships,
it destroys your personal shalom,
your personal piece.
So if you were not forgiving each other,
then obviously goes back into anger and festering conflict and stuff.
Those things that haven’t been handled well,
it starts to distance us and it starts to pull us away from each other.
But then if it’s outside on relationships outside of this are my own personal shalom is damaged and because we are one,
not just because we’re one in christ,
but we’re one,
you know,
God said that the two become one that when you’re married,
the two become one flesh where some house in a way that isn’t apparent in the material world,
but in the spiritual world where one couple and if my shalom’s damage,
so is yours Sure,
it has that ripple effect and it certainly goes into the family,
I mean,
you hear about,
I think some things where it’s like somebody has a hard day at work and they come home and they take it out on the dog,
they take it out on their kids,
they take it out on their spouse just because it’s that disruption and the shalom.
Absolutely.
Now,
for the parents that are listening though,
because often when you get married,
Children come into the picture,
it’s not a requirement,
but it’s off place.
What effects are there on Children?
If there is unforgiveness in our marriage?
I think it’s an awful kind of thing because kids are so perceptive and kids are that perceptive.
And you might remember as a kid,
as you’re listening to this,
if there was some tension in the household,
you’re going to be more sensitive to that,
that even you might be as an adult.
But the problem is when you’re a kid,
you don’t really have that kind of control over being able to smooth things over because you weren’t very likely involved in whatever has upset the parents in that kind of conflict.
So it’s really important,
I think to make sure that you do have that home of shalom,
you don’t have anything that would be troubling.
I think,
again,
growing up in the eighties,
I’m the Star Wars kid,
we don’t want a disturbance in the force.
There’s some theological problems with that.
But yeah,
but also kids,
I mean,
the research has shown time and time again,
that Children need to know their parents love each other even more than Children need to know their parents love them.
And it’s that I know that I’m safe because my parents love each other certainly.
And I think that what goes along with that is they know that they have that safety and security and stability in that stable home because even though kids certainly want to be loved and appreciated and cared for,
they need to have that foundation of that stability.
And that’s going to be the parents who are both submitted to christ and submitted it to each other and looking out for each other first,
what would you recommend to a couple right now?
That is there’s just there’s something between them.
They’re having trouble forgiving.
What would you recommend to them how to move forward with that?
I would say that again,
that’s being that one difficult or awkward conversation away from having a thriving marriage and taking those steps towards doing that.
It’s it’s important to I think show courage and be brave,
pray to God first for that.
If there’s something significant going on,
there’s certainly never any shame in in counseling or marriage mediation.
And you can go to our website at operation thriving marriage dot com to get more information about marriage mediation and can certainly get referrals to therapists as needed and again,
never any shame in seeking that kind of help.
But it’s important to be able to have that open and honest conversation with your spouse about what’s troubling you.
And sometimes you have to certainly go back and forgive multiple times.
And what I mean by that is keep forgiving until it sticks and don’t let the enemy knock you down,
where it’s just like,
well,
goodness,
I thought I forgave my spouse or I thought I forgave a parent or somebody outside of the family.
Sometimes you have to continually go back and go through that kind of forgiveness process.
It’s feeling like it’s not sticky.
Absolutely.
And remember,
just because you’re not feeling the way you want to,
the actions can still happen.
And so another thing I would add to that is if you’re feeling like you can’t forgive.
If there’s something that can’t be forgiven,
I’d ask you to ask yourself this question.
What are you afraid of?
What would happen if you forgave?
What’s the negative consequence you’re afraid of that this forgiveness?
Are you afraid that the person that needs forgiveness won’t learn their lesson?
Are you afraid that the person who needs forgiveness won’t change and walk through what that is?
And then think through what needs to happen?
Because if your concern is I’m afraid that person won’t change.
If it’s your spouse,
you didn’t marry them to change them.
And while in christ he is changing us to be more like him as your spouse,
as the spouse,
your job is to love them and to show them who they are in christ and help them see that.
But you’re if you’re waiting to forgive until they change.
That’s not forgiveness.
That’s very true.
And I think that in the marriage relationship it has to be not just forgiveness but reconciliation.
Because as you had mentioned earlier,
brian,
you can forgive somebody and for whatever reason,
somebody outside of the marriage relationship,
maybe you have to part ways to be married and be in that thriving marriage.
You need the forgiveness plus the reconciliation.
Um,
so that that you can go on as if that offense hadn’t occurred.
And again,
for some serious offenses,
you need the counseling.
You need certain kinds of boundaries,
but you need to be able to move forward together in the relationship and be reconciled to each other as we’re reconciled to christ and really want to encourage you make the choice that forgiveness.
It’s been clear in scripture and it’s been psychologically affirmed that that forgiveness is healing for both you and the one forgiven.
You have been created in God’s image and then you as a couple.
God has brought you together as one to become more like him and to show his love to the world.
And we’ll make that choice to forgive so that you can experience the thriving marriage that God wants for you.
We have another opportunity for you to help your marriage thrive.
We are hosting a special intensive marriage retreat at the beautiful richard bush renewal center in michigan.
This is an opportunity for us to spend time with you personally developing the skills that will help your marriage thrive.
We’ll talk about enhancing communication skills,
conflict resolution and building intimacy in your marriage.
As an added bonus podcast,
listeners will receive a 10% discount.
All you have to do is mention the Operation thriving marriage podcast.
When you register this retreat is limited to only nine couples.
So make sure you register soon.
For more information.
Contact us at our website.
Operation thriving marriage dot com.
We look forward to meeting you in person.
Mhm.

Filed Under: Uncategorized Tagged With: forgiveness, marriage

Who’s The Boss: Dealing With the Struggle for Control

March 28, 2022 by Bryon Harvey

Back in the 80’s there was a popular sitcom starring Tony Danza and Judith Light called Who’s the Boss. If you’re my age you might not remember Judith Light but you certainly remember Alyssa Milano. For a lot of us, she was our first TV crush. The comedy of the show revolved around the non-tradional gender roles of the successful career woman working outside the home and the male housekeeper. This of course included struggles for control between the two. 

Struggles for control between men and women at home are a pretty common device in sitcoms. Watching these struggles makes for some pretty entertaining television. These same sorts of struggles, while common in marriages, are far from entertaining. These struggles can create conflicts that when not handled well can create significant problems in a marriage.

It helps when dealing with struggles for control to remember why these struggles exist in the first place. The first reason we struggle for control is our own sin. The foundation of our sin and all the sins we commit is pride. In Mere Christianity C.S. Lewis says, “According to Christian teachers, the essential vice, the utmost evil, is Pride. Unchastity, anger, greed, drunkenness, and all that, are mere fleabites in comparison: it was through Pride that the devil became the devil: Pride leads to every other vice: it is the complete anti-God state of mind.” The first and primary reason we struggle for control is our pride, our sin. We want things to be as we imagine or desire them to be. When things are not so, we fight to gain that control.

The second cause of the struggle for control is, of course, the sin of your spouse. The same pride that lives in us lives in them. The same desire to control situations and outcomes that lives in us, lives in them. Two people with the same desire to have things their way are guaranteed to experience conflict. 

Once we know the cause of the struggle for control, the solution becomes clear. Both spouses must relinquish control in their marriage to Jesus. This sounds simple, but we all know how difficult it is to consistently submit ourselves to Jesus. Even Paul in Romans chapter 7 shared his struggles with consistently submitting to Jesus.

There are a couple of specific things in marriage that will help you overcome the struggle for control. The first is a change in attitude. To stop fighting for control in your marriage, stop thinking that you should be in control. “Instead of being motivated by selfish ambition or vanity, each of you should, in humility, be moved to treat one another as more important than yourself” (Phillippians 2:3). “You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. He humbled himself to the point of death – even death on a cross!” (Philippians 2:5-8). This change in attitude can have a very quick effect on the quality of your marriage. When you choose to stop trying to be in control, you will stop fighting for control. 

Relinquishing your desire for control in this way requires a huge amount of trust. How much do you really trust God to meet all of your needs? Your ability to relinquish control in your marriage will tell you a lot about how much you truly trust God.

A change in attitude will help stop the struggle for control. The second change is a change in action. Submit to your spouse. Paul tells spouses in Ephesian 5:21, “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” Did you notice why you should submit to one another? It’s not because your spouse deserves your submission. It’s not because one of you is less than the other. It is because of Jesus. Out of reverence for the one who died for you and now reigns over all you should submit to each other. Submitting to each other eliminates the struggle for control in your marriage.

Submitting to each other also requires a great amount of trust. It requires that you trust your spouse to not take advantage of your submission. It requires that you trust that your spouse is going to put equal effort into maintaining the strength of your marriage. But then, that’s what marriage is, isn’t it? It is trusting another person to live a godly life where you both work to build a relationship that honors God and represents his love to the world around you.

Who’s the boss? Jesus is. In light of that, serve and submit to one another and you will overcome the struggle for control in your marriage.

Filed Under: Blog Tagged With: argue, bible, conflict, control, marriage

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About OTM

Operation: Thriving Marriage exists to be a resource for couples and churches to build thriving marriages. After writing the book, Bryon and Jennifer felt God calling them to expand on that work to use what he had taught them to help strengthen Christian marriages. After a lot of prayer and conversation the vision of being a resource for couples and churches began to come into focus. We believe that God doesn’t want marriages to merely survive. God wants marriages to thrive.  Whether it’s through the book, podcast, coaching, or a live event, we pray that God uses Operation: Thriving Marriage to encourage you and strengthen your marriage and the marriages in your community.

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